by MIA FREEDMAN
What’s the difference between a scented candle and an unwanted pregnancy? There isn’t one! They’re both gifts and should be accepted with smiling gratitude.
When Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum was asked earlier this year how he’d feel if his daughter was raped and became pregnant, he insisted he wouldn’t want her to have an abortion and would instead encourage her to see the pregnancy as ‘a gift’.
Last week, Richard Mourdock, the Tea Party-backed Republican Senate candidate in Indiana, declared during a debate that he was against abortion even in the event of rape because after much thought he “came to realize that life is that gift from God. And even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen.”
This word is often used by people opposed to abortion and at first, it seems like a reasonable one. Babies are a gift, aren’t they? Many new parents use that exact word, especially if they’ve struggled with infertility.
But what about the ones who don’t choose – or want – to be pregnant?
A candle and an unwanted pregnancy do have this in common; neither ‘gifts’ were chosen by the recipient. And that’s where the similarities end. Because lives aren’t plunged into poverty and extreme emotional, mental and physical hardship by a candle that smells like figs. Journalist Caitlin Moran masterfully argues against the idea of unwanted pregnancies being ‘gifts’ in a recent column where she says:
“From the shop floor of pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood, here’s what that gift can entail: tearing, bleeding, weeping, exhaustion, hallucination, despair, rage, anaemia, stitches, incontinence, unemployment, depression, infection, loneliness. Death. Women still die in childbirth. Not as many as used to – but notably more die while receiving any other “gifts”, such as scented candles, or minibreaks. Additionally, “gift” sounds hopelessly inadequate to describe your children, whom you inhale like oxygen, swoon over like lovers and would die for in a heartbeat. I have never done this over a foot spa, book token or vase.”
This week I watched Mitt Romney’s wife Anne on The View face questions about her husband’s strong anti-abortion views and what they could mean for women if he were elected President. She tried to demur, saying it was ‘a very tender issue’ and segued quickly towards less emotive ground. “What most women are saying to me when I talk to them is ‘help’,” she countered with faux gravity, “because they’re in terrible financial strife.”
At that point, I had a shouting-at-the-TV moment. “Can’t you see the connection between those two things, Anne? Forcing women to have babies they don’t want and can’t afford to look after pushes them into poverty!”
Naive people believe restricting access to abortion will stop women from having them. Even better, make it illegal! More gifts! Smarter people understand women will always find ways to control their fertility, even if it means risking their lives. The idea of forcing a ‘gift’ onto someone who desperately doesn’t want it is baffling. And cruel.
I’ve always wondered how anti-choice crusaders measure their ‘success’. Is it by an increase in the number of children who are abused or neglected? Perhaps it’s by the number of women who abandon their education or employment? The percentage of mothers forced onto welfare? Or maybe ‘success’ comes in the form of more families pushed below the poverty line. Is that what a gift looks like?
Nobody wants the abortion rate to be high. Not pro-lifers. Not pro-choicers. On that much, we agree. I personally believe in the ‘Safe, affordable & rare’ philosophy. But when it comes to reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies, consensus evaporates. Poof. Gone.
The idea that prevention is better than cure is a no-brainer and particularly relevant to reproductive health in Australia where our rate of abortion (19.7 per 1000 women) and teen pregnancy (17.3 per 1000 women) is high compared with other Western countries. One strategy to lower those numbers was making emergency contraception (the morning-after pill or ECP) available over the counter without a prescription. Has it worked? Kind of.
A recently published Australian study of over 600 women aged 16 to 35 found that just under half (48%) knew they could get it over the counter and up to 60% of women didn’t understand how it worked.
What if we went one step further? What if all contraception was free? Fact: free contraception would dramatically lower the number of unwanted pregnancies and abortions in Australia.
The Contraceptive Choice Project, conducted by researchers at Washington University proved this beyond doubt. In 2007, they enrolled 9,256 women aged14 to 45 and gave them access to free contraception for two years. The results were dramatic. The annual birth rate among teen girls dropped by more than 80 percent and the abortion rate among women of all ages dropped by around 70 percent.
How bizarre then that the groups and people most vehemently opposed to abortion are the same ones who don’t want to make contraception (or sex education) more widely available. “It seems illogical,” explains Australian ethicist Leslie Cannold, “but it makes perfect sense if your real problem is the idea of women having sex outside of marriage for reasons other than childbearing.” Ka-ching. Now I understand the connection. Hello Catholic Church. “While the majority of religious people in Australia are pro-choice,” add Cannold, “nearly all anti-choicers are religious.”
So here’s a thought, why aren’t we considering the idea of free contraception as a way to reduce abortions? Because that would be a true gift to women, to men and to society.
And then there’s this. In a debate this week Republican candidate Richard Mourdock said that “even when life begins with that horrible situation of rape, that is something God intended to happen.” Sigh.







Comments
459 Comments so far
I am adopted. My birth mother was 15 when I was born. I very much doubt that she considered me a gift. Im sure at some point she probably considered abortion. However, I am grateful that she was selfless enough to give me the gift of life.
It’s so easy for people to say they are pro-choice when they are so far removed from the consequences of abortion.
In Australia, there are so many families looking to adopt. Perhaps this should be encouraged as a means for dealing with unwanted pregnancies.
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Every baby IS a gift. If it is a gift that you don’t want then regift it to someone who does.
I’m glad you’re live, Kate xx
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I once read an article on this issue that stuck in my mind. It mentioned that to be truly PRO-LIFE, one has to be thinking beyond saving the physical life of a child, and thinking also of everything else a child needs to grow up and ‘live’ successfully. Love, emotional stability, healthcare, school, the list goes on, and I haven’t enough time to point out the flaws in foster homes and adoption systems, not to mention the lack of psychological support systems needed for children born from rape, or even just to families unable to care for them. To be truly PRO-LIFE, one has to also be promoting a system of government and social security that would secure the entire needs of every child whose mother did not go through with the abortion. Picketing outside abortion clinics and distressing pregnant women in what is likely one of the hardest times in their life, is a huge reach from fighting for a society which could truly embrace PRO-LIFE. In the absence of such a society, I see no reason why we should prioritise the life of a child that neither knows nor cares whether it is alive or not, above the life of the conscient women who knows exactly what she can, and cannot do.
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I was reading the SMH this afternoon and noticed an article which was binning Tony Abbott yet again (so predictable SMH). This time on his opposition to RU486.
Here’s the thing, I’m a feminist (and recently came to grips with the fact that I’m probably a Liberal in the Australian sense), I support abortion and I have had one. I prefer for abortion to be decriminalized rather than legalized because I think the grey space we occupy in the Australian States protects us from some of the polarization in the US debate.
I have always had issues with RU486. I’ve never been comfortable with a woman going home with an aborificant and terminating a pregnancy home alone on her own. It’s not even the ease of it all (although I think that’s an aspect too). I do think make it easier and more women will take less care over preventing pregnancies on their own. I don’t think that’s a good thing for women.
So please don’t suggest that opposing or at least having concerns with RU486 makes me less of a feminist. I care about women and women’s health.
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I am not anti-abortion. But it seems to me that it is to easily accessible. I understand that for many it is a difficult decision. But I have also come across a couple of women who have had 3 or 4 abortions. That, in my opinion, is absolutely horrendous. Irresponsible.
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Cazz – the morning after pill doesn’t terminate a pregnancy. It’s not an abortion pill. If you are pregnant already, it’s ineffective.
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I have suffered an abortion, I am not religious but I hurt everyday because of the shame. The shame by women that condemn me for not wanting to celebrate it – I should be relieved, glad and happy. It destroyed the relationship and career I tried to save by having an abortion – I have a feeling my partner would have got over it and fell in love with his child and my work would have survived without me for a few months, I however am debilitated by grief and these things are now gone.
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thank you… for living
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Abortion kills a human being, not just terminate a pregnancy or not just a medical / surgical procedure we use these words to take away from the reality of the act. Abortion doesn’t stop you from becoming a mother, I can’t speak for a rape victem but many rape victems do speak out, many children born out of rape do speak up ! they consider and highly value the precious gift to keep on living their mothers gave them. Either keeping their children or adopting them out. Rape is a horrible despicable act but it doesn’t void the value of a life.
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Thankyou Jen for speaking the truth!
We should not be punishing the victim, but rather the criminal.
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She’s not speaking the truth, she’s giving her opinion
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This issue is quite complex and I am annoyed by those who oppose abortion saying things like “contraceptive pills are available in Australia, therefore no woman has any excuse for unwanted pregnancy” and other simplified generalisations.
Many women do not have easy access to contraception, such as those in remote communities or those living in absolute poverty (such as indigenous people in outback communities). Additionally, many women (myself included) have been advised by their doctor not to take hormonal contraception due to medical problems. Those women must rely on other, less reliable forms of contraception (such as condoms).
It may be hard to believe (especially if you already have prejudiced assumptions), but many women who end up with unwanted pregnancies are NOT teenagers, are NOT irresponsible about birth control and are NOT uneducated about sexual health.
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In response to your comment, I was in a relationship for 11 years I never fell “accidently pregnant” as so many women put it. If you dont want to fall pregnant you generally dont!!
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Well if you managed not to fall pregnant then every other woman who does is just not trying hard enough…….
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I find this terribly sad, both from a young woman’s perspective, and that of an Australian citizen.
In all cases except rape (or severe cooercion), a woman already *has* made a choice – that of sleeping with a man when a pregnancy (their child) may result.
So, why do I both oppose abortion, and oppose the morning-after pill? Because both of them ‘terminate a pregnancy’ – destroy an innocent, unique and precious life.
What do I term success? Firstly, moral and healthy woman who have a choice, and *make a choice* NOT to sleep with a man unless willing (note I didn’t say wanting) to bear a child. (even better, not at all unless in marriage! I highly respect women who guard their virginity, as I am doing, until their marriage night) Feel free to bash me all you like – you’re welcome.
Secondly, the lack of destruction of innocent human lives – the saving of living, unique babies.
“Naive people believe restricting access to abortion will stop women from having them.”
I would not personally consider calling me naive, as I have done a lot of research into this subject, and I have found solid evidence that the rate of abortions is dramatically lower when it is restricted. That is a fact.
Many women who get pregnant without wanting the pregnancy are well able to care for the child, and if abortion is unavailable for comfort reasons, they will not go seeking an illegal one.
It’s only one way – every woman who seeks an illegal abortion will be quite happy to get a legal one. (barring costs and several other factors) However, many people who will have an abortion if it is legal/easily available won’t have one if it is illegal/difficult.
” “Additionally, “gift” sounds hopelessly inadequate to describe your children, whom you inhale like oxygen, swoon over like lovers and would die for in a heartbeat. I have never done this over a foot spa, book token or vase.” ”
What I find impossible to fathom is that someone who would describe a child as above (which I totally agree with, as I have many younger siblings and babies who I adore) would then be willing to ‘get rid of’ the child which they think is immeasureably more valuable than a gift – pay for the murder of their own child. It is simply mid-boggling, not to mention extremely saddening.
I definitely agree Esther – there is so much hype about rape related abortions, and yet they are a tiny, tiny minority! I think it is far more important to focus on the major problem – ‘convenience’ abortions’ – and stop fighting furiously over a miniscule percentage.
Cheers,
Cazz
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Not so minuscule if it’s you. What would you tell those women?
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So basically, we shouldn’t have sex unless we’re willing to be pregnant?
I hope they build a time machine soon, so you can go backwards to a time more suited to your narrow perception of things.
This is a very old fashioned point of view which comes from the man-made view that if a woman gives up her virginity, pregnancy is something she ‘deserves’, a consequence for her actions.
Almost like a punishment. Which is horrible, because whilst I am 23, unmarried and in a sexual relationship AND want to have kids eventually, I don’t want the responsibility thrust upon me, when I’m not ready or willing, just because I choose to be intimate with the man I love.
Should I be burdened with a tiny life I may not be able to give every thing it needs, just because I want to have sex? No. It’s a stupid, backwards belief.
That said, I agree that abortion should be allowed, but has to be carefully applied so that irresponsible or idiotic girls can’t constantly use it as a quick-fix for their knowing mistakes (e.g. “Oh no, I’m pregnant after not using pills or condoms for those last few guys. Quick, to the abortion clinic!”), but I also doubt I could bring myself to get an abortion myself, but that said I have also never been raped, and I would HATE for it to happen, to get pregnant for it, not have the option of abortion available to me, and to raise the child resenting and hating him/her for their father’s crime.
There is also the case of families that have far too many children. and yes, YES people, you can have too many kids.
Lets look at a young, middle-class Catholic family, and YES, Catholic, I will angle the spotlight here. The main Catholic religion states that contraception is a sin. So every time the woman has sex with her husband, there is a possibility of a child, no matter how slim, unless she is already pregnant. Lets say the husband is a blue-collar in an office and the mother works in retail up until her first pregnancy, at which point she chooses to stop working in favour of raising children.
Fast forward then years. They have six children, supported by one paycheck. As the parents attention is so divided amongst so many children, a couple of them miss out on the quality time and affection they could be getting, and start to drift, however the parents maintain strict Catholic views over the kids. The father takes on a second job to try and support the family, but the mother still cannot work, because there isn’t enough money for childcare for the younger kids whilst she’d be out.
At this point, frustrated but blind-sighted to the failing of her religion, the wife makes a choice not to have intercourse with her husband anymore, because they simply can’t afford to feed another mouth. This lack of intimacy eventually ruins their marriage, although for the sake of their children they don’t get a divorce. Because of their low income, there is not enough money to send all of the children to college. One of two of the oldest go, the rest become uneducated spreaders of the seed. rinse/repeat for the next generation.
Of course, this is an extreme example, but the point I’m trying to make is hopefully clear: religious morals need to stop getting in the way of common sense.
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Seriously? We should make it harder to get abortions so that women who are on the fence have children they don’t want and the women who really want an abortion can find an illegal one… that will probably kill them. Brilliant. So much logic: don’t have sex because if you do, you deserve to get pregnant and die having an illegal abortion.
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Okay, slightly off topic, but I love your dress in this photo Mia!! Where is it from???
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Fancy trying to take the most extreme examples and turn them into a case for being prochoice, this is high order deception and manipulation in consideration that less that 1 point of a single percentile are the numbers of Abortions due to rape.
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I come from the UK where all contraception is free. The rate of unwanted pregnancies, abortions, teen motherhood and sexually transmitted diseases is just as high or higher than in Australia. I do not believe that free contraception will make a difference (even though you’d think it would!). The study above may have worked as it may have been combined with some counselling to the girls they were providing contraception to or perhaps it was more effective because poor girls in the USA are not used to getting things for free like they are in the UK! I believe that more sex education, not less, is one of the answers to reducing the amount of unwanted pregnancies in this country. Too many young girls are looking at early motherhood and a life living on centrelink payments as an alternative to education and employment. However accidents still happen and in that situation (not to mention rape) women should have the choice of termination open to them. Abortion is a horrible thing for a woman to go through but I don’t want to live in a country where it is not an option, albeit an emotionally difficult one. Perhaps if it didn’t carry such a stigma less babies would be born into poverty or unhappy homes?
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The “safe, available and rare” argument always annoys me. Safe and available, yes. Inexpensive, yes. Personally, I don’t care how rare it is.
Termination of pregnancy is a medical procedure. Sometimes it is elective, sometimes it is recommended by a doctor (for medical reasons). It is an operation. Many people find that it is a heart wrenching, difficult decision. Some people may make the choice lightly, and that is their choice to make. The whole point is that the option exists.
If your religious beliefs are against abortion, don’t get one and shut up. If you feel that you need to have one, for your own reasons, that is your choice. It really annoys me when people try to tell me what I can and can’t do with my body, particularly when their beliefs are based on a religion I don’t believe in.
Also, abortion has been legal in this country for at least 30 years. Why are we even discussing its legality? We should discuss its expense, or availability, or the continued persecution of women who seek abortions by fundamentalist zealots.
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Personally, I think it’s important that abortion is not only safe and accessible, but also rare. I know that it’s a decision that is made lightly by some women, and while I think that that’s fantastic that some women are able to bypass a lot of the negativity and anguish which often is associated with abortion, it’s clearly not the case for all women.
It can be difficult to know how any particular woman, including yourself, would respond to having an abortion, even if it doesn’t seem like a huge deal to you leading up to it. Plenty of evidence (from say, the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, or the British Medical Journal) suggests that risk of developing alcoholism, drug abuse, and suicide (emotional consequences) are significantly increased in women following abortion. Some of the other physical consequences include increased risk and complications in later pregnancies including placenta previa, labour complications and pre-term delivery.
If these health issues (threatening to both mother and any wanted children she may like to have in future) could be avoided by endorsing a view in which abortion should (hopefully) be rare, then I think that that’s important. That’s not to say that women wanting an abortion should be made to reassess whether or not they really should have one, but rather that abortion is a very important decision which should obviously be safe and accessible to all. In an ideal world abortion would be relatively rare – not because women are being coerced into having children they either do not want/cannot take care of (therefore forcing down abortion rates) – but rather because we will have developed even more effective, fail-safe contraceptive options and sex education will have drastically improved. Eve, surely you would agree that if women do not want to have babies (hence the need for an abortion) then it would be better if we could somehow make the need for the procedure rare by improving the pre-conception options available to women?
The whole ‘rare’ angle is more about a societal- and medical-level change and not about telling more women to keep their babies when they clearly cannot or do not want to.
Just my 2c.
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what I don’t understand about this and other debates (gay marriage, burkas etc) is even if you don’t want to do something why do you want to deny others the opportunity to exercise their FREEDOM of choice.
I don’t want to wear a Burka, but I would never tell someone they aren’t allowed to. I don’t believe in Marriage, but I would never tell a group of people that they can’t get married, I have never been in a situation where I have needed an abortion, but I would never deny other women the safe and accessible option to terminate their pregnancy.
Different strokes for different folks. If you don’t like it, don’t do it, but don’t tell me what I can and can’t do myself.
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A society without rules, morals or expectations of decent behaviour isn’t too far away, I see.
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Your morals may not be my morals – what I’m trying to point out is that subjectivity on many issues is a given. Gay marriage, wearing burkas or legal and safe abortion does not mean the end of decent behaviour or law abiding citizens..
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It is a question of where the line becomes drawn. Some people like to steal, be violent or worse… so who are we to tell them they shouldn’t be allowed to do so? Different strokes for different folks right? lol
Taking the life of an innocent child who has no voice or say is a “line-drawer” for some people.
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i am very torn on this issue.
a few years ago i had an unwanted pregnancy. i already had a very young baby and i was no where NEAR ready to have another one. i was horribly upset about the whole thing. 3 months later the pregnancy ended and the grief i felt and still feel is like nothing i have ever felt before, or since. it is since experiencing this i have come to realise that ending even and unwanted pregnancy is likely to cause extreeme emotional heartache that people probably arent prepared for. i couldnt imagine feeling the way i did/do and then adding the guilt of knowing it was something i had done. it is a choice that cant be taken back.
like i said, i am torn because i also know the aweful feeling of being pregnant and not wanting to be and i know that it would be so SO much worse for women not in a supportive relationship and stable financial situation.
i agree that the very best solution is prevention and keep terminations, as mia said, as affordable, safe and rare as possible.
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Great article, Mia. And some interesting comments here.
I’m a single, childless woman. I’ve never been pregnant and, as I was surprised to discover once I hit my 30s, don’t particularly want kids.
If I got pregnant, I’d want to have an abortion. Firstly, I have no desire to experience a pregnancy (and the aftereffects of it). Secondly, while the idea of giving my baby up for adoption seems good in theory, I wouldn’t feel comfortable about it, as I know I could give him or her a great life – I just don’t feel as though being a mother is my destiny.
Having children is the biggest commitment a human being can make, and one of the only things in life you can’t undo. I don’t see why I should have my life unwillingly turned upside down all because of a sexual mishap. Doesn’t make sense to me. So far, I’ve been successful at preventing that mishap, but I think I’ve just been lucky.
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People who have abortions because they didn’t use contraception should do compulsory sex education about the risks of unsafe sex. Including men if they provide contactdetails for them.
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Kris2040, i love reading your comments on Mamamia posts. I cant think of any i havent agreed with!
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Kris2040, i always love reading your comments here. I cant think of 1 I’ve ever disagreed with!!
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Thanks Ladybug! (I’m going with this comment rather than the other one! LOL!)
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My first child was a surprise with an ex fiancee. He wanted an abortion. I kept her. I have never held him financially responsible for my choice. Then a miscarriage followed by a healthy boy. Then a girl with Turners syndrome diagnosed at around 12 weeks. We had the option to abort. We chose not to. She died at 24 weeks. They were amazed she made it past 16. Alot of people couldn’t understand why I would want to wait for my baby to die inside me and carry her til they could induce me. But they didn’t have to coz it was my choice. The thing is I am not resentful or bitter because I did have the choice. Had I been forced to keep or lose any of my children I think I would feel differently. I would never want infanticide or abandonment to be in Australia like it is in China and India. I wouldn’t want to see death from backyard abortions. More mental health issues coming about because of forced choices. I think sometimes its kind of like the room full of strangers or the personyou know question. Smetimes a life is lost for the greater good. Its sad, but rather than inflict the hurt on the mother her family and society that would ctome from taking away her right to choose, we should ete and support women to make their best possible choice. I know from talking to Midwives and others that many women are not strong enough to make the choice I made, and I would not wish to make their life at that moment any harder by taking away their choices.Its life. Its messy. We all cope the best we can by doing what we believe is for the greatest outcome.Don’t limit other people just because it doesn’t suit you. And just so you know, I still think about my choice to keep her and everyday I pray she didn’t suffer in my belly because I choose to force her to live.
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What she said…
I’d love to see a world that allows freedom of choice and freedom from oppression for making those choices. It’s not about advocating one side of the argument or another.
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Oh how I love this article! Mia has got some serious balls for bringing this subject to the table!
I am surprised by the Pro-Birthers jumping into the comments. (I reserve the Pro-Life Label for only those who actually make a point to focus on the life of the unwanted child post birth) I haven’t actually met an out of the closet Pro-Birther since I moved here from Texas two years ago.
I must admit I kind of miss the rabid Pro-Birthers… All that anger at young females (generally low income and under-educated) who have unwanted pregnancies, who they see as the face of evil… Compassion is such a huge obstacle for some.
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Pro-Birthers as opposed to Pro-life. Love it
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I wish contraception was cheaper, a lot of the pills that are subsidised are the old school types, that do horrendous things to my body, the new kinds are very expensive, this isn’t just an issue specific to me, a lot of my friends, and I believe many other women don’t take the pill because of the side effects, but if we were able to get the new kinds it would make it a lot more possible. I’m not just wanting something for free, I just believe the government should keep up to date and subsidise the best medication available.
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There’s more contraception available to you than just “the pill” you know. There’s IUD’s, nuvarings, depo shots, the implanon implant – in fact as a woman you have more choice in contraception than ever before! If the pill isn;t working for you, perhaps research some other options. If you have cost concerns, talk to your GP about it, they should be able to recommend the most cost effective options for you.
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Why are there so many references to GOD ! who is he/she again? oh, thats right, a make believe character from a long, long time ago. i find it thoroughly amusing that people are blind sided by just the thought of a GOD. The SUN is our god, without it, there would be no life. Not some fictional character that noone has ever seen….
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If a man doesn’t not want a child there is something called a condom. If abortion becomes illegal then adoption should became easier.
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I’m not sure if this has already been covered as I haven’t read all the comments, but my pill script cost $15 for 4 months. It’s the generic brand, of a very commonly prescribed contraceptive. Yes perhaps I’m lucky that I don’t need anything more sophisitcated, but it really isn’t expensive. In the UK they used to, I’m not sure if they still do, give away condoms etc and the unplanned pregnancy rate is still very high.
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I thought i was against abortion and then this happened to me!!!
After the birth of my 2nd daughter the doctors had advise me not to go for a 3rd as they could not guarantee to save my life next time. I lost nearly 4 litres of blood straight after my 2nd was born and it took several hours and many doctors to stop the haemmoraghing, I was rushed out of the delivery ward and straight into theatre and the last thing i saw as they wheeled me out was my husband holding the newborn with a look on his face i never want to see again, my mum, dad and sister left in the waiting room not knowing if i was going to survive. So you can imagine my devestation when I fell pregnant again, after a failed morning after pill (while on the waiting list to have my tubes done). The decision was not easy but the most painstaking decision i have ever made. I made the decision to have an abortion and not take the very high risk of not surviving and leaving a husband and 2 kids without a wife or mother. MY VIEW HAS CHANGE AND EVERYONES SITUATION IS DIFFERENT AND YOU HAVE TO LIVE WITH THE DECISIONS YOU MAKE IN LIFE, IT WAS THE HARDEST THING I HAVE EVER HAD TO DO AND EVERY JULY REMINDS ME OF THAT. I will always wonder “what if” i took the risk, however it was ultimately my decision (but a decision we made together straight after our 2nd was born).
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For the people judging and looking down there noses. Hop off that high horse. How lovely to be so pure and perfect, how lovely to be able to sit and judge people without ever really knowing them or walking a day in there shoes. I couldn’t careless abort don’t abort. Why dont I care?? Because every woman and man has a right to choose. Accidents happen. We are all human. Why should a persons life be distroyed (yep distroyed) just because a bunch of white knights said so. God knows if I had have been bare foot and pregnant at the age of 16 my dad would have peeled the potatoes and ran the hot bath. Put this next to gay marriage. Live and let live. Every circumstance is unique and unless its happening to you. Mind your own. (By the way I’m aware my grammar is average)
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I remember hearing a talk by a woman who’s father was a rapist and her mother decided she wouldn’t abort despite pressure to. I wonder what she would have to say in reply to your article Mia? (and that’s a genuine rhetorical question)
I am pro-life but that’s not because I want to give up my and others’ reproductive rights, but because I believe that there is never a justification for ending a life. If it is wrong to kill a baby for the same reason when it is born, why is it okay when it is in-utero? I certainly don’t think that God ever intends women to be raped, but I do believe that he can take the worst situations and bring good from them.
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I have a family friend who was raped and chose to keep the child. She was honest with him from a young age and assured him that she loved him despite the awful situation he came from.
He is now a young adult and very happy. And she has no regrets.
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Once again religion gets in the way of common sense. If my daughter was raped and fell pregnant I’d be taking her to the clinic and holding her hand. No questions asked. But then again I am not deluded by the big man in the sky who sends messages to men hiding in mountains.
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How superior you must feel. How surprised you’d be if you’d seen what I’ve seen.
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Well if you’ve seen something to prove the existence of a deity – for gods sake you tube it.
In the meantime your argument isn’t convincing and thankfully terminations are safely available now to all who want it for pregnancy resulting from rape or any other reason.
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the whole abortion debate really bugs me.
I can’t actually believe it’s STILL an issue. I believe it should be available, cheap and legal for those who may need it.
you know what else bugs me?
“it’s a gift from GOD”
says who?
not everyone believes in God, so why is his/her name thrown in there all the time?
i think the God thing must be very irritating for those who do not believe in God and would just like to use some common sense and ensure woman aren’t placed needlessly in danger or on path to poverty/depression, etc.
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You can’t believe it’s still an issue? All that tells me is you mix in very narrow circles. The pro life movement is growing. Atheists, pagans, agnostics and religious are joining the ranks. You might like to read more widely.
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Pro life movement growing? Well, you’ll still be a small group of people trying to tell women what do do with their own bodies.
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Dear Anon, half of us in the pro life movement are women. Isn’t that a tad sexist for you suppose women can only be pro choice? Is it off your radar to think that women and men can both understand that the unborn human being has exactly the same right to live as everyone else, including her/his mother?
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How on earth do you get that from Anon’s comment?? It’s true – it’s still going to be a small group trying to tell women what to do with their bodies.
The one with the off radar appears to be you, ukelele strings. Apart from your excellent rebuttal of my point (“your argument fails!”), you refuse to accept that others don’t share your point of view, and don’t believe the same thing as you do.
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Your pro life argument is great in theory. Every fetus has a right to life. Doesn’t work in practice.
If every fetus that ever existed was born because it had the ‘right’, just how many people do you think would be on the planet right now?
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why don’t you guys and girls go and look after all of the unwanted children already here then? Put your money where your mouth is.
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They get aborted before seeing the light of day, I’m sad to say.
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I don’t believe you ukelele strings. I don’t think you would raise a finger to help any of the unwanted children that would result from banning abortion.
No one in the pro-birth camp discusses any plans for future consequences to the accidental fathers, to the women impacted nor the ongoing issues with a generation of (known to be) unwanted children. No discussions, no fancy graphs with impacts broken down by race, age and social standing, no research, no nothing. Best Plan Ever! So well thought out.
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ukele strings- my operative words Already Here are clearly
about current unwanted children already born. To those that do not want them and do not care for them – help them if you are so driven to save children.
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Just on the general discussion of abortion…Is there any place for the male DNA contributor in any of this?
If a woman is not ready to have a baby (ie become a mother) because she wants to travel, isn’t financially secure, is too young, too old, has too many kids already, is stressed, unemployed, just not mentally ready..whatever “not ready” might mean, doesn’t it also follow that the male (ie father) can also be in any or all of those predicaments?
Yet if the mother decides she does want to continue the pregnancy, the male just has to live with it. No more free and easy life for him, no more partying, surfing having a good time. He’s got to buckle down and pay for this child that he doesn’t want. He has to pay no matter what he has to say on the matter. (or be labelled a deadbeat father )
No matter if he had other plans with his life (see how selfish that sounds?). There would be outrage if he said no and insisted on an abortion. And conversely if he desperately wanted the child he has no rights to compel the woman to carry the baby (for him) and hand it over.
Everyone beats the pro-choice drum, but there is no choice for the male in all this.
There will never be equality..because let’s face it. Men and women are not equal and never will be.
Legal abortion is a necessity. Argueing if it is a human being or a cluster of cells is pointless IMO.
When you abort you are terminating life.
You really need to try hard not to have to do that. Really hard.
Whether it is “a” life or simply “a living organism” is irrelevant. It is what it is. If you did nothing it would, in most cases, be a healthy human being.
So instead of thinking of all the reasons why abortion is needed, let’s focus on all the things that can be done to make it rare.
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“Everyone beats the pro-choice drum, but there is no choice for the male in all this.”
If you can’t see the difference, I think you need a lesson in basic human biology.
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That wasn’t the point of the argument at all, all you’ve done is beat a drum that isn’t worth beating.
The point, right or wrong, is that men have absolutely no control over the outcome once he has ejaculated. His wishes, abilities and willingness are not at all considered. If the woman chooses to have the child, the father becomes a cash cow, if he wants to be a father and she wants to travel, he gets no say.
It’s not a simple case of “him taking responsibility”, it’s him being required to abide by the choices of someone else. That is a scenario that women today would go spare at if roles were reversed.
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Yes, once he has ejaculated he no control, unless he wears a condom. Then he has control.
If he doesn’t want kids and his partner does he can also wear a condom and she will have no say either, or be required to abide by, if you will.
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Yes, I was to blame for conceiving, apparently, because “I thought you were on the pill”. My response was “Well I don’t recall you busting out the condoms.”
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Kris, I don’t think that is a valid argument. Sure he should have asked about the pill not just assumed if he wasn’t wanting to risk becoming a father but you could SEE he wasn’t wearing a condom, and I presume you also knew you weren’t on the pill.
So yes I would agree with him. You are the one responsible for falling pregnant.
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I was using contraception. Sorry, I can see how that reads! I was using the nuva ring, and had actually been to the dr to get a new script the week my daughter was conceived. Ironic really. His attempts to suggest that I was somehow misusing the contraception was an attempt to draw my motives into question.
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Ah Kris, yes that makes a difference (sorry can’t reply directly- no reply button.)
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No my grasp on biology is just fine thanks. Still takes a man and a woman to make a baby. Just because a man can’t gestate shouldn’t mean he has no rights in relation to products of conception.
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To answer your original question – no, there is no place for the male DNA contributor in any of this. There is no comparison between what is required of a man to grow and birth a baby and what is required of a woman.
You are confusing the term ‘equal’ with ‘fair’. If a woman has an abortion against the male’s wishes both man and woman have maintained their bodily autonomy. If a woman is forced to carry and birth her baby due to her partner’s ‘choice’ she loses her bodily autonomy while he has maintained his. Not fair in either circumstances – but equal.
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But what you, opinionated, are ignoring, and what is ignored by nearly all women is the fact that the father may not want to be bound to the child support agency for the next 18 years.
I’m all for pro choice, and while I don’t like the idea of abortion the procedure must be available to protect the health of women on a basic level, I just think that if the man chooses to not be a father he should not be held to be financially responsible for the choices of another.
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Then he shouldve worn a condom or not had sex!
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Such hyprocrisy, Rebeccca,
Why can’t the same be said for women? If anyone had said “use contraception or don’t have sex! oh and while you’re at it.. tough titty, you got yourself pregnant now you have to live with it..no abortion for you young lady! ” to any number of the women on this post who have related having an abortion after they fell pregnant at a time/circumstance that was inconvenient for them..Whoa!
But Men? Well..if you don’t want to be responsible for a pregnancy DON’T HAVE SEX!
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Actually its not hypocrisy as I didn’t tell you what my opinion was in relation to the woman. I think its the same thing with woman. If you have sex without contraception then be prepared to get pregnant. In fact, if you have sex full stop be prepared that a pregnancy might result. I do think that the male should have some say and youd hope that 2 people who come together to have sex could come together to work out what to do. But at the end of the day the baby is growing inside the female so she ends up with the final say.
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I know a man whose child was aborted against his wishes. He was as damaged by that act as a woman would be if her pregnancy was forcibly terminated. I always thought that if the man is not going to be given a true say in the matter than the woman shouldn’t tell him. Telling him about a pregnancy that you’ve already decided to terminate is cruel.
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I know a few men who have been trapped by women deliberately falling pregnant without telling the bloke they hadn’t used contraception. The poor blokes had no choice, some stayed for the baby but did not love the mother, so eventually broke up and the others took off and who can blame them.
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Yes, it happens and is very wrong, just as there are men happy enough to have babies with women and not bother with said children after the relationship ends.
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Faybian, deserting children happens both ways too, my first wife disappeared into the ether leaving me with 2 boys, and she hasn’t ever contributed a brass razoo to support them.
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Yes, it happens to men too. I’ve also heard of men messing with contraception to get women pregnant.
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When I was at school we had a pro-life rep visit and give us a lecture (yes lecture). They even tried to tell us that using contraception was as bad as having an abortion because you’re stopping what could be the creation of a baby. Needless to say at an all-girls school this didn’t go down well. The teacher who organised it later apoligised
It just seems like a basic human right to me. Why oh why would you want someone to have a baby if they don’t want to? Babies are a gift but only to those who wrote them on their wish list.
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When I was at school we had a pro-life rep visit and give us a lecture (yes lecture). They even tried to tell us that using contraception was as bad as having an abortion because you’re stopping what could be the creation of a baby. Needless to say at an all-girls school this didn’t go down well. The teacher who organised it later apologized
It just seems like a basic human right to me. Why oh why would you want someone to have a baby if they don’t want to? Babies are a gift but only to those who wrote them on their wish list.
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I always think about the potential human that is being terminated. What was this potential human going to be? The next Prime minister, the person who discovered a cure for cancer? Maybe a teacher, nurse, body-builder or that 6 year old in the playground who stands up to the bullies and be-friends the kids no-one wants to know. Maybe they are just a bunch of cell’s being terminated, but they could have been so, so much more.
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Hi JustMe, this basis for arguing against abortion is called Utilitarianism. It says that we should not abort babies because they might provide some sort of useful benefit to us somehow. The pro choice answer to that is, “well think of all the rapists, murderers and pedophiles we are killing as well – it will all balance out”.
The true pro life philosophy goes much further back than that to say “The foetus is a human being, no more and no less, and on that basis alone they must be given the same right to life that everyone else has”.
So, if you’re pro life (a rarity around here I’ve discovered) then you should not use the Utilitarian argument to promote the cause, as well intentioned as you may be in your efforts. Go back to the fact that all human beings have the fundamental right to life, no matter what stage of life they happen to be in. That is irrefutable.
All the best.
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Utilitarnianism can also be used to support abortion. The main point is the greatest good for the greatest amount of people but it has to be weighed up against also the cost/benifit for those involved. If the baby that would not be born is then raised in an unstable environment, ends up in the foster system, and has also cause emotional harm to the mother than cost/benifit suggests that for the 1 child who may cure cancer there is another who may turn into a career criminal, thus cancelling each other out.
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Interesting that you claim that “Go back to the fact that all human beings have the fundamental right to life, no matter what stage of life they happen to be in. That is irrefutable.” Yet it’s extreme anti-choice activists who bomb abortion clinics, kill their staff and exhort women to have babies when it would be detrimental to their health. It would seem that apparently some have more of a right to life than others among your contemporaries.
Also kind of interesting that Mitt Romney, and many other conservatives are anti-choice with regard to abortion, but support the death penalty. Where is the right to life of those being sentenced to death? They’re just in a stage of life, after all.
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Thank you, Kris2040, for pointing out so well one of the most blatant pieces of hypocrisy embraced by the alleged ‘pro-life’ brigade and American conservatives in general. Love, love, love it.
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Or a victim of child-abuse or neglect, unwanted and uncared for. Perhaps they would never recover from their horrendous childhood and go on to become troubled, possibly dangerous, adults.
I spent most of my own childhood wishing I had never been born and would never wish that on another child.
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Yes, life is hard. You won’t find anyone on the planet disagreeing with you there. People can choose how they deal with that fact, and how to make the best of any situation. That often takes time to see a way out, but there always is one. Taking the life of an unborn baby can never solve one’s problems though, and can never solve society’s problems either. Life is hard.
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Abortion solved my problems.
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HI Uke
Have tried to comment a few times again to show my support but the message haven’t showed.
Anyway,you keep making calm and clear arguments against abortion so good on you.Interesting as well what you said also about atheists even starting to become aware of the negatives of abortion.
Respect to you!
(by the way I am a female!)
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Or a serial killer?
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I had my first child when I was 17. Abortion wasn’t an option to be considered beacuse I was raised Catholic. 2o years on my path in life has been very different from my childhood dreams and aspirations but I do have an amazing child. Every now and then I catch myself wondering what if? What I do know for sure is that if my own daughter found her self in the same position I would definitely want her to have the opportunity to make the best decison possible for her without any predjudice.
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Personally I am pro-choice. I dont believe that the child becomes it’s own being until the cord is cut. To me, and this is just my personal view, until that time it is just an extension of the mother’s body. I have always been a very stringent contraception user. I’ve been having sex for 13 years and have not fallen accidentally pregnant once. If I had, I would have had an abortion, because I would not have been at the stage of my life where I was ready for a child. I am planning on trying for our first child with my husband in around 12 months. If the child has any major deformities or disabilities picked up in the tests, I will abort it. I know this probably sounds incredibly harsh to some, but I consider myself a realist.
Whether or not you agree with the choices I would (or would have) made in my life is irrelevant. It should be the choice of the mother and medical practitioner ALONE to choose what is best FOR THE MOTHER.
I know my views aren’t shared by a lot of you, but they’re mine and I’m completely comfortable with them.
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Couldn’t agree more Charli, very well put.
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Fertility is not a tap that you can turn on when YOU want it to. It is also a gift and what God giveth, God can taketh away.
You may have plans of oroducing the most perfect baby and anything less than perfect will be aborted BUT what if the baby is born with cerebral palsey, you can’test for that. Or autism, you can’t test for that. Or deafness, blindness, schizophrenia,ADD or simply grows up to be an underachiever. Is that good enough for you? Perhaps you should rethink whether or not you are suitable to be a mother.
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Assuming Charli believes in God, right, Justine?
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Thanks Kris2040 – for the record no I don’t believe in God or organised religion.
I don’t think the concept of God really has any play in this debate. Well, not in my mind anyway. To me, it’s like asking Ronald McDonald what he thinks of it all.
I response to Justine, of course I am not so silly as to think that I can prevent or predict every little thing which may negatively impact my future children. Let’s face it, getting pregnant is huge risk in and of itself, and there is no way of ensuring that your baby will be born healthy. However, these early tests for certain disabilities exist and are available to me, as is the option to consider termination (in consultation with my Doctor) if the tests show a certain issue, and I will be taking this opportunity to have the tests done and make this decision if they don’t return positive results. If the tests show that my child will be born with massive deformities or brain damage, then I will make the choice not to bring it into the world. It’s not about having the best kid in the world, it’s about at least having the opportunity to make a choice at that stage of the pregnancy. My personal belief is that it would be detrimental to both myself and the child in so so so many ways to knowingly bring the child into the world with massive physical or mental issues. No, we can’t test for cerebral palsy, or deafness, or them just having a horrible personality – those are things we have to risk and take into account when making the decision to fall pregnant in the first place. I dont judge ANYONE who HAS decided to bring a child with known issues into the world, but it is not an outcome that I myself (or my husband) would do.
Your line “Perhaps you should rethink whether or not you are suitable to be a mother.” at the end of your response there, I assume that was supposed to invoke an emotional reaction in me? Was it supposed to make me dissolve in tears that one person thinks that I may not be a good mother? Sorry, if you were hoping for that, you’re not going to get it.
I honestly don’t give two hoots if you think I will be a good mother or not. In all fairness, no one really knows if they’re going to be a good mother until they’re doing it. Until then, all we can do is hope, and try our darndest. I am very comfortable with myself and with the many many many many discussions I have had with my husband over the last 10 years about the decisions we may make during pregnancy, and of how we will raise our child or children once they come along. In the end, these decisions are ours alone, and in the nitty gritty of it all, they are MINE alone.
Not yours. Not the politicians, Not your imaginary “God”.
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Beautifully put Charli. Good luck with everything. At least you won’t be forcing religions ‘ made for men ‘ set of rules and their outlandish fairy stories on your child.
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“Perhaps you should rethink whether or not you are suitable to be a mother.” Good point, Charli.
I’d also add that this is in fact exactly what people who have had abortions have done, and decided they found themselves or their current situation to be unsuitable.
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Um, I believe the invention of the pill back in the 1960s DID in fact give women the ability to turn their fertility on and off in a tap-like fashion.
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The argument over whether or not the foetus is a human being is irrelevant.
At the end of the day, it is about bodily autonomy. A woman cannot be expected or forced to incubate or birth a foetus if she doesn’t want to.
Even if pregnancy and birth didn’t carry all of the inherent risks and “inconveniences”, it is still her choice. She doesn’t have to justify it or tick off from a list of acceptable reasons to terminate. It is her body and the foetus is part of her body.
Her body. Her choice. If a woman makes this choice, she has the right to a safe, clean medical procedure – same as any other human being who chooses a medical procedure for whatever reason.
That the state or anybody else thinks they have any right to control this is simply terrifying and it has massive consequences for all women.
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Could someone kill you, because they thought the question on whether or not you were a human being was “irrelevant”? No way.
The foetus is part of her body? Does she have two heads? Two hearts? To distinctly different sets of DNA? If she is carrying a boy, is she also an hermaphrodite?
It is telling that pro choicers always try to steer the conversation away from the question of whether or not the foetus (the Latin word for “little one” btw) is a human being or not. Of course it is, unless you are deliberately ignorant of biology and science in general.
Since the foetus is a human being, then for society or government to allow them to be killed is to have two classes of people. One is protected against injury or murder under the law, and the other is left completely defenseless.
A society like that is headed for certain self-destruction.
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No someone can’t kill me because I have rights over my body. Scientifically a foetus may be a human being but it does not have bodily autonomy over its mother.
Yep, the foetus is part of her body. While it is in her body it is part of her body. What happens to a woman’s body, whether it contains a foetus or not, is entirely up to her.
Many pro-choicers see a foetus as a human being but recognise it is irrelevant in terms of the argument of the rights of the woman. You cannot force a woman to be pregnant if she doesn’t want to be. She has full rights over her body. Until that baby is born and separate to the woman’s body it’s rights do not and can not trump the rights of the woman.
I am 31 weeks pregnant with my second child and I am very aware that there is a little person in there. He was a person to me from the moment I knew about him. But I will still defend to my last breath the right of women to safe abortion – women must have control over their fertility and their bodies otherwise we have two classes of people. Men who have bodily autonomy protected under the law, and women who don’t and are left completely defenseless.
A society like that is headed for certain destruction.
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What about the father’s right to have and hold his child? Do you think that your bodily right is even more important than the father of the child? If there is a man willing to raise his child for 18 years is the right of a mother to have control over her body for 9 months still superior?
Is the mother’s right over the child for 9 months still more important than the child’s who could have had 80 years loved by an adopted parent? In what circumstance is 9 months for a woman SO important that the child and the father have to miss out for the rest of their lives.
There are options for mothers that allow them autonomy, but without such a high price. Adoption is one. Women need options to be ABLE to have their baby, not ‘impossible situations’ that make it too hard.
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Yes, a woman’s bodily rights are more important than the rights of the father.
Yes, a woman’s bodily rights are more important than the rights of an unborn child that “could have had 80 years love from an adopted parent”.
Bodily autonomy is sacrosanct above all else. For men and women, boys and girls. All living human beings must have full rights over their body. Without it, it is a slippery slope indeed towards other forms of subjugation.
This is not a gender issue but a human rights issue.
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Does the child in the womb have a right over his/her body, or are they excluded from that right?
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Totally agree Opinionated. I think the distinction between life and sustainable life gets lost in the pro-life agenda. Of course science tells us that life begins at conception, but unfortunately that life can only be realised if it is gestated within the mother, so in order for that to happen, we have to expect women to hand over their bodies.
And I’m far from comfortable with that.
An embryo or foetus must be gestated within the mother, and as a woman who is currently 33 weeks pregnant with a very much wanted baby, the idea that I would be forced to do this, forced to subjugate my free will and bodily autonomy in order to birth a baby that I didn’t want is truly frightening.
Until the life inside me is sustainable on its own, sustainable according to science and medical best practice, I reserve the right to choose whether or not the pregnancy should continue.
And will vehemently fight for that right.
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Hey Tara, I didn’t know you were pregnant! Congrats. You’re back home now, right?
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And a new born baby needs to be cared for by someone too, usually its mother, by your argument you shouldn’t have to suject your body to that if you don’t want to.
Congrats on being happily pregnant.
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I agree – it’s all about Choice. Life is about Choice. You have the freedom to choose what you do with your body. You have the freedom to choose what and when you eat, you sleep, your occupation, who you date, your sexual orientation (putting aside the intolerance in society) and generally everything else in life.
You have the freedom to Choose to believe in no God, a God, a godess, a deity, a supernatural being or even Tom Cruise.
You also have the Choice on who you want to sleep with, what you put in your body, and how it goes in (rape excluded). You have the freedom to purchase a pregnancy kit from Coles, or some condoms from woolworths.
You have the choice to use euphemisms if it helps your emotional well being, and justify the ‘termination’ by saying ‘it’ would never be able to grow ‘without me’. You have the Choice to let that fetus grow, or the Choice to ‘kill’ the unborn ‘life’ inside you.
You have the Choice to think that “abortion is morally permissible because a woman has a right to control her own body”
Or the Choice to believe that: “By having sex, the fetus has a right to life beginning at conception ”
My mother had a Choice. She had the Choice to have me or the Choice to aborted me. If she Chose the latter, she would have most certainly killed me.
The fetus however has no choice. She has no right to flourish into a child, a person, a human. Until the moment it breaths air, it has no right to live, infact no rights at all. The mother of that child does have a choice, the choice to value that life, or to discount it.
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I’m sorry, but why should the government have to fund this?? Why should it have to be free? It’s not even that expensive!
Here’s an idea, want to have sex but dont want to have a baby, BUY THE PILL. Cant use the pill, get your partner to wear a condom. Cant afford either of these??? GET A JOB! Cant get a job? Dont have sex. Simple really.
What Richard Mourdock said was highly disturbing, and as a Christian one I dont agree with. It’s not my place as a Christian to judge people for there choices.
What I dont agree with is my hard earned tax dollars being spent on the pill for woman who cant get their lives together!
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This is such a ridiculously simplistic view. Many, many women get pregnant while on contraception-it’s not a reflection of them not having their lives together. One of my friends got pregnant twice on the pill and once with an IUD. She was absolutely gutted and it wasn’t due to anything but terrible luck. She wasnt in any position to raise a child-especially with the idiot she happened to be dating. Dont be so judgemental.
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The same thing happened to me twice when I was at Uni. The second time, I found out just after the father who I had been living with for the last 5 years had left me for someone else. We have to choose and have the right to choose the right time in our lives to have children and for me the right time came later with the right person. Forcing women to have a baby just to fit in with their “religious gift from God, life is sacred” beliefs is absurd. These people clearly do not live in the real world.
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Buy the pill? You are aware the pill sometimes fail?
I fell pregnant on the pill, lots of women do. Condoms break. Other things go wrong, sometimes women can’t take the pill, sometimes men and women are allergic to latex. Buy the pill? Why aren’t you saying – Give men the pill? Then women would have a lot more options.
Clearly you aren’t aware that a lot of pregnancy is accidental. I really wish people like you would join the real world.
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I just can’t see a unemployed couple on the verge of sex exclaiming; ‘Wait, STOP! We don’t have a job and we’ve forgone our right to have sex’.
It’s also likely that these women on the socio-economic fringe who are least likely to make educated and responsible decisions regarding birth control. They are the women least likely to see life options other than motherhood for themselves.
Women who are down to their last 50 bucks are likely to see contraceptive expenses as too costly when choosing between buying the pill vs a pack of cigarettes or food.
It is these women living below the poverty line who would take the most benefit from free contraceptives. I would go as far to say that free prescriptions for the pill should be handed out automatically to women on unemployment benefits because you are concisely targeting the women in the very demographic that needs free contraception to create different life outcomes.
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A similar option for men would be awesome too, wouldn’t it?
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Sure would. But; I’m more trusting of women to use contraceptive (free or not) responsibly.
However, that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms.
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The least of which is putting (well, keeping) women as being responsible and therefore somehow at fault should it fail.
I wonder how many men would be lining up for a male version of depo or implanon were it to become available? Or indeed a male contraceptive pill.
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This is probably an unpopular viewpoint, but I believe that as the consequences of pregnancy fall very directly and immediately on women; that will always make them (pragmatically) the most reliable users of contraception.
I think that male implants would get the most uptake amongst men who are prepared to take responsibility for their accidental offspring. These men are probably already using condoms of their own volition.
Wrong as it is, not all men are prepared to take responsibility for contraception or accidental pregnancies and women need the pill to insure against ‘heat of the moment’ decisions by both parties not to use a condom.
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I see what you’re saying, but I don’t think we have to accept that.
Similarly, if guys don’t accept the responsibility, why should they get any say in what the woman wants should it end up in a pregnancy?
If it were available, men on unemployment payments would of course be given free scripts too, wouldn’t they?
I think it’s a massive copout to say that men can’t be trusted so you girls have to pick up the slack.
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You had a minor sideswipe at the Catholic Church in this article. Why not take it all the way and talk about them (not only Catholics but all Christian sects) and the damage they have done over the milennia.
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Why don’t you do it yourself Tony? You seem to be up to the task!
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Though I am pro-choice and definitely against an illegal option, I am sad that rarely is abortion that actually rare in modern Australia. Many are (as others have said) due to just ‘oopsie’ accidental conceptions that have come a couple of years earlier than expected. Although rarely contraception can fail, many terminations could be avoided if sexually active people took proper precautions.
As Kitten said below, she has friends who ‘had abortions because the pregnancy came at the wrong stage of life for them’ – I do find that an interesting choice of words, as pregnancies don’t just miraculously ‘come along’ and appear, a stork doesn’t leave a bundle at the door like an Australia Post parcel.
Two friends (under 30) have openly shared that they have each had three terminations – on average every 4 years. Each time it was non-use of contraception, or just utter carelessness. Each time it was a fairly nonchalant decision for them to make. Not once did they learn a lesson from it. The pregnancy was inconvenient in each case. Termination was viewed as a later ‘contraception’.
Abortion should not be regarded this way. It could almost be avoided altogether. I have always been very cautious (knowing I personally could not handle having an abortion) and have always been meticulous with the pill and condoms; have never had an unplanned pregnancy.
I also feel that easy access to online porn in the last decade has a lot to answer for in terms of pressure from males to females for the reduced use of condoms. Sadly, stats show that people use them less during one night stands even, than they used to in the 1990s and 2000s. Also, being drunk during one night stands definitely does lead to unplanned pregnancies, and often STIs. I’m not saying don’t have one night stands (I have had them!) but DO USE CONDOMS– it’s not that difficult. And is it really worth forgoing one for what, four minutes of slightly increased pleasure, if that?
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The issue of abortion has to be distilled down to one question: “Is the fetus a human being?” If the answer is “Yes”, then abortion is never acceptable. If the answer is “No”, then why all the controversy?
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I think this simplifies things a bit too much. I think if you want to pare it down the better question would be ‘When is a foetus a human being?’ I had a baby at 26 weeks and she was most certainly a human being. But at 6 weeks, 8 week, 12 weeks when most abortions are performed I’m not so sure. Interestingly, babies born at under 24 weeks are not ressusitated and between 24 and 26 weeks they are resussitated at the parents request only. SO in that sense you could say 26 weeks is considered a human being. But if the medical fraternity can’t even find a definite age at which a foetus becomes a baby then I’m not sure anyone ever will. Legally it is when they take their first breath, which means by law foetuses are not human beings.
The other issue with your argument is that there are very valid reasons for having late or even full term abortions when there are dire medical circumstances. If you do consider a foetus to be a baby, then this complicates the distinction.
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Sound logic requires us to keep things as simple as possible, and to avoid any unnecessary complications to muddy the water.
Emotions are great, but opinions have to be formed by logic and reason, not emotions.
What does science say about the beginning of human life?
“In human reproduction, when sperm joins ovum, these two individual cells cease to be, and their union generates a new and distinct organism.
This organism is a whole, though in the beginning developmentally immature, member of the human species.
Readers need not take our word for this: They can consult any of the standard human-embryology texts, such as Moore and Persaud’s The Developing Human, Larsen’s Human Embryology, Carlson’s Human Embryology & Developmental Biology, and O’Rahilly and Mueller’s Human Embryology & Teratology.” – Dr. Robert George
If you are into science, you can only be pro life.
I still maintain that this is a simple issue, and there is no logical need to complicate it. I am on the side of science, and science says human life begins at the moment of conception. Just because it appears to be a cluster of cells, it is a serious error to say it is *only* a (non-human) cluster of cells. That is illogical and un-scientific.
The argument that says that it doesn’t look like a human being falls apart pretty easily too. In response to that objection, the answer is obvious: It looks like what a human being is supposed to look like at 1 day, 1 week, 1 month etc. It only needs the environment and nutrition to reach its potential. Nothing else.
If the law has gotten this wrong (not that that would be a first, right?) then it needs to get with the latest science and legislate accordingly. You can’t have select groups of people protected under a law, and not others. What have governments done with that kind of arbitrary power in history?
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The suggestion that if you’re “into science” you can only be pro-life sounds pretty arrogant to me.
I’m “into science” as you put it, but I’m pro choice, not pro-forced pregnancy. Science doesn’t tell me women should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, with all the attendent risks. Science tells me that women are functioning human beings, and ethics tells me human beings have rights, including the right to bodily autonomy. We wouldn’t force a person to donate a kidney, even though that kidney might save a life. Neither should we force a woman to carry a pregnancy, even if some religious people see that as saving a life.
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I forgot to add my name to the post above. Sorry, I am new around here…
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Hi Ukelele Strings
I have loved reading your very clear and informative posts.
You have my total support in your beliefs regarding abortion.
Unfortunantley you will get very little support from most of the commentators in this post because there is a lot of the whole mantra chanting”it’s my body,it’s my body,it’s my body”.
Best of luck to you.
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Thanks hh, I figured that MM was pretty one-sided, with a few exceptions. I don’t mind though. I like getting amongst the opposing view and talking about the big issues. They’re important, and will determine our destiny as a civilisation. I wonder if many of the commentators on MM think the same way, or do they just preach to their own?
I firmly believe that reason and logic, properly applied, will win the day.
With all respect to pro choicers as fellow human beings, I am yet to see a logically sustainable argument for their position. There is a lot of emotion and subjective feeling tied to that side though.
On the other hand, I see the reasonableness for the pro life side as logically irrefutable. That’s why I am confident that abortion will one day be abolished, even if it takes a hundred years.
I can’t help thinking often that History is watching us. One day we will be viewed as a similar spectacle to the collapse of the Roman Empire in its death throes. Future generations won’t give a damn how we felt about this or that. They will just look at what we actually did, and judge our actions accordingly, whether we like it or not.
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And we’ll keep chanting to retain power over our own lives and bodies and not become incubators to please MANmade religions or zealots like yourselves. Do you want to stop educating women as well? Waste of time isn’t it if we’re all just here to produce offspring.
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Ukele strings, I do agree with you on our society heading towards something similar to the fall of the roman empire.
I don’t, however think that abortion (or God forbid, vaccination) is driving it towards the precipice. I think belongs to greed, love of the almighty dollar and love of power.
Neither do I think history will necessarily be judging us for having legalized abortions available, since induced abortions most likely predate even the roman empire.
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Yes, a foetus “organism is a whole, though in the beginning developmentally immature, member of the human species”. But I don’t understand why you think this means I must be pro-life.
What if the pregnancy was putting the woman’s life in danger? Why is the possibility of delivering a healthy baby more important then the life of the woman?
I believe people should be able to do whatever they like with their own bodies. The foetus is part of the woman’s body and she should be able to decide whether she uses her body to bring it to an age where it can live without the use of her body.
Also I don’t see why emotions should not be considered in this discussion. This is a human issue and humans have emotions. If a woman feels that carrying and giving birth to her rapists child would be too emotionally taxing I think that is valid.
Where is the science behind saying I should sacrifice my body (or life) for the life of a foetus? Why do you believe the foetus has a right to develop and be born, and the right to a woman’s body? Do you feel emotion toward the foetus or something?
Science can not answer the question of whether or not abortion should be allowed.
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You’re correct.
Science does not make moral judgements. It only provides us with some of the knowledge we need so we can do that ourselves. Some of that scientific knowledge tells us that a foetus is an independent human being with a human DNA distinct and different from the mother – it can’t be just a part of the mother’s body in that case. Science working through common sense tell us that.
Therefore the foetus, which means “little one”, has the right to life, which is the beginning of all other human rights – the ones you and I enjoy. If you take that right away, everything else is also disposable.
We have let the monster out of the cage on this issue. We have denied the right to life to a select group of people (the unborn) and let another select group (the already born) retain it. Such arbitrary whims can easily change, and one day, that same monster will turn on you, but it will be too late. Sorry.
You must be pro life if you can see that scientifically speaking, an unborn baby is as much a human being as yourself, your family, your friends. All these groups of people have the right to have their life protected by law. Why do you think that just because someone is not born yet, then they have no right to life? It makes no sense on any level.
Pro choicers just keep chanting their mantras louder and louder, and won’t consider any reasonable argument to the contrary. That’s why they will be defeated in the end, and abortion will be abolished, because people need solid reasons, and irrational slogans and mantras get old quickly.
Yes, I have emotions. They’re great, and make life wonderful, full, rich. But they are usually stupid and irrational, so to speak. They can’t be relied upon to come to a right understanding of an issue, especially one as huge as this, one that will shape our destiny as a civilisation.
We have to be able to use reason and logic, because they don’t change, and aren’t the sole property of any individual, yet everyone can recognise them in operation. There is no such thing as “my logic” or “your logic”. There’s only logic. It doesn’t mean everyone will like it when they see it, as is obvious by most comments on MM.
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Its not called a foetus until 8 weeks gestation. Perhaps a should find a way for pro lifers to volunteer their bodies to gestate these unwanted embryos themselves and they can be viewed as baby factories…
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Go Uke Go,you good thing!
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“I firmly believe that reason and logic, properly applied, will win the day…There is no such thing as ‘my logic’ or ‘your logic’. There’s only logic.”
True, there is no such thing as “your logic” or “my logic”. There is such a thing as reasoning and, as such, sometimes one’s reasoning can be flawed.
So you insinuate you are on board with logic, ukelele strings, but you are contradicted by argumentum ad hom, argumentum ad populum, argumentum post hoc ergo propter hoc, strawman fallacies, reductio ad absurdum, and false analogies.
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I was a raging pro-choicer until I saw the heart of my baby girl at 7 weeks beating away. Whilst it was a planned pregnancy, had it not been, I could never have gone through with an abortion after that. I would never take the choice away from women, ever, but that furious heartbeat shifted my stance.
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So you’re still pro-choice?
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Yes I am. However it made me realise this is not a black and white situation. I am pro-choice but I myself, having always believed I could go through with an abortion if need be, could not after all.
I don’t believe in the ‘bunch of cells’ theory anymore, what I saw on that very early US was life.
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I think it’s easier for us to ‘okay’ abortion if horrific conception circumstances were involved. I imagine the majority of abortions are due to accidental conceptions (failed contraceptives etc). My stance is like Mia’s: safe, available, and rare.
And as for someone further up the comments who posted about adoption being much worse than abortion due to being left with a saggy body – wow. Having seen the joy adopted children can bring, it is the most unselfish act a woman can voluntarily do, I think. (Note: voluntarily, not forced adoptions/stolen children.)
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Mia, interested to know how you can champion a women’s right to control their fertility but you are so opposed to a woman’s right to give birth in the way she chooses. Can you see the hypocrisy?
I don’t particularly agree with ‘freebirthers’ but I fail too see your logic here. If a ‘child’ dies due to her mother’s choices during birth, how is that different to the ‘child’ dying due to her mother’s choice a few months earlier due to a termination? If a woman should have the freedom to end a pregnancy, surely she has the right to choose how to give birth?
Im pro choice, but I can’t see how you can be so judgmental on freebirthers.
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I really should start a doc to just copy and paste from.
Intent. Intent. Intent.
If you want to have the baby and intend to keep it, you do everything in your power to keep that baby safe and that includes bringing it into the world safely. Giving birth in a bath at home with no help doesn’t come under “giving birth safely”.
If you didn’t want to get pregnant and don’t want to keep the baby, and choose to terminate, then you tend not to view it as a child or baby. Because that is not your intent.
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If I hold an apple in my hand, but I want it to be an orange, it doesn’t become one just because I want it to.
If I have a living human being in my womb, I can’t just change it to a non-human cluster of cells because that is the way I want it.
It’s interesting that you point out that if you choose to have an abortion, you *tend* not to view the baby as a baby, but if you do want to have the baby, you view the baby as a baby.
As much as we might try, we can’t change the substantial form of anything into a different substantial form by our intent alone, and that is where your argument fails.
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Your perception is that it is a living human being right from the start. That wasn’t mine when I had my abortion and I’m clearly not the lone ranger in thinking and feeling that way.
My argument is sound, it just disagrees with you. That doesn’t make it a failure.
Being in the far from unique position of having been through both deciding to abort a pregnancy and to follow through with one, I can assure you that the feeling are indeed very different depending on your intent.
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ukelele strings is correct. You are ignoring objective truth and elevation your feelings and your intent. Both can be wrong.
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There is logic making the choice to abort (I don’t have the resources/skills/whatever to have a child) but there is also emotion involved. That’s where the intent comes from. It’s not black and white.
And because so much of it IS based on exactly those feelings, your feelings don’t trump mine. Pro-choice doesn’t stop anyone from having a baby if they CHOOSE to. Anti-choice, on the other hand, attempts to stop those who don’t share the same feelings and opinions into doing something they don’t believe they should do because “they’re right”. Pretty rude, really.
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What Kris2040 said.
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“But this goes to eleven.”
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100% agree kris! Well said.
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The argument most cited for pro choices is that women should be able to choose because it is their body that will have to endure the pregnancy and birth so they should have choice.
Just because you ‘choose’ to see a fetus differently in different circustances doesn’t change what that fetus actually is, you know. That is a personal and subjective view of the situation. If you choose to view your unwanted pregnancy as a ball of cells, what about the woman who home births and doesn’t see it as a living child until it is delivered?
I don’t agree with homebirthers, but I think a womans right to choose how she delivers her child is her right – you cant bring your own personal views on it, just like you shouldn’t judge a woman who chooses to terminate. Both situations are personal and have nothing to do with anyone outside the parents.
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Who are you to judge what is “safe”??
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I think you are drawing a long bow here. Abortion should always be an informed choice. The free-birthing story I think you are referring to was about a woman who ignored doctors orders, did very little preparation, had no medical staff at hand and sat in labour for days knowing she had a high risk pregnancy and potential for complications at birth. She didn’t even have anyone on hand that knew proper CPR. This is far from an informed choice to end an unwanted pregnancy.
I think most people that are pro-choice are pro-choice about fertility, abortion, and birthing. They just believe in informed decision making and owning your choices and their consequences.
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Kitten, just our of interest, how would you suggest we would stop women from having an abortion, if it were illegal again, like back in the ‘good ol’ days’?
We could never know what a pregnant woman is thinking or planning would we?
If we did know, would we jail her and tie her to a bed until she is forced to go though labour?
How cooperative do you think she would be during that labour?
Maybe they should all have forced caesarians then?
If they do go ahead secretly and abort themselves or see a backyard abortionist, and they are still alive, would we then drag her into jail? ,
For how long do you think?
Naturally we would also need to jail the father of the child, if he was unwilling to support the woman and child, thus leading to her having the abortion?
Where would it all end?
The jails would be full!
What a load of rubbish!
No one can and should be able to force women to do what they don’t want to,
That would be a huge step back in time…
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Abortions are actually still illegal in Queensland. If you are going to have an abortion it must be for a “medical purpose” such as the mother could not psychologically handle having a child. Which isn’t hard on a doctor signing off on but it still non-the-less illegal (well it was last year when I studied criminal law).
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It’s all semantics. You are either pro legal abortion or pro illegal abortion. Regardless of your opinion, women will continue to have abortions. We have the choice to keep them safe and legal or make them unsafe and illegal. That’s it.
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This man cannot get elected for President based on that issue alone. Humanity is supposed to be moving forward, not backward. Sorry Anne and Mitt, I just cannot fathom the thought that there are enough conservative Americans who will go for that. God help you if they do.
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There are many many conservative Americans – far more than in Australia. And those in the middle tend to become more conservative in difficult financial times like the US has seen in recent years. And for many people the ability to run the economy, (because it largely falls to the president in the US as opposed to an entire party like over here), affects them much more than the president’s stance on an issue that is very unlikely to garner federal support anytime soon no matter who is in charge. Like many other social issues, abortion is a state government matter in the US, as it is here.
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I might get slammed for this, but I think there is a middle ground between anti-abortion and pro-choice… sort of like pro-choice with qualifers. I believe if abortion should be an option if someone is pregnant as a result of rape, or it will save the mother’s life. I don’t however believe in abortions where someone has consensual sex and gets pregnant and healthily so. Contraceptives or no, it’s your responsibility to ride out what happens. I also feel pretty strongly about people aborting on the basis of disabilities detected. I have a condition that barely affects my day to day life that is now something babies can be be aborted for… if my mother had chosen to do that, I wouldn’t be here living a completely normal life. And even if it DID affect me… would I be less worthy of living??
I am pretty much an atheist, so it’s not a faith-based thing. I have friends who have had abortions because the pregnancy came at the wrong stage of life for them, and I don’t judge them but I (silently) don’t agree with them. But I admit I don’t know what I would do in the circumstances, and acknowledge it’s easy to have these opinions from a distance. I did however have a friend that moved into a line of work determining foetuses to terminate based on their genetic makeup and I just can’t deal with associating with her anymore, I think it’s horrific.
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Because being capable of having sex makes you a good parent? What about all those darling babies abused and neglected by their d***head parents who have no business having children? Unfortunatley it’s often the people who have the least business being parents that get pregnant the most*, due to laziness, lack of awareness or care of consequences, irresponsibility or ignorance. If they all had the babies (as in your abortion model) there’d be countless babies born to people who don’t want them, can’t afford them and can’t be arsed raisinh them. Isn’t that the worst outcome for everyone?
* I got pregnant by accident so i know it happens even when you’re careful-I’m not suggesting unwanted pregnancies are usually someone’s fault!
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Sadly I don’t think it’s the parents most likely to abuse and neglect their children who are the one’s having the abortions.
They aren’t thinking “Oh I better not have this baby cause I’ll probably just neglect it”.
It’s the educated women who are capable of determining that their circumstances aren’t ideal or it’s not part of their life plan at that moment or the man they shagged is a dropkick (what is that all about anyway? ) having them. People who are thoughtful enough to make the decision to abort are more than likely to make good parents (as in not abusive or neglectful) should they proceed with the pregnancy.
Using the neglectful/abusive scenario to “justify” the need for abortion is spurious. Similarly the starving child argument. In that case do advocates support going into 3rd world countries where children are actually starving and offer abortions? The rape argument? Just how many pregnancies are the result of rape? Very few I would imagine.
I am pro choice. Don’t get me wrong, but I get annoyed at the attempts to justify it. What saddens me is the fact that it is not rare. And I do strongly believe personal responsibilty factors heavily in this.
(I know a lot of abortions are by the very young. Kids make mistakes. Education, open attitudes to sex, and contraceptive availability doesn’t seem to have made a dent in these statistics).
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Actually, I’ve seen women that are considered “high risk” (socially and economically), have terminations. I think your idea of this group not having them is quite a generalisation. It’s done by a wide cross section of society.
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Regardless of why a woman is having an abortion it absolutely has to be her choice. How can anyone justify a woman being forced into carrying an unwanted fetus? Pregnancy is dangerous, and it changes everything; your ability to work, your body, your social and your financial position.
The intent of an abortion is not to kill the fetus, it is to remove the fetus from the woman’s body which results in the death of the fetus (confusing, but the is a distinction to be made). It is completely different from killing an infant, and I would suggest it is closer to removing a parasite from the body which cannot survive once removed.
Don’t get me wrong, I think abortion is tragic and I feel so sad for every woman who is in a position where they feel the need to terminate a pregnancy, but not offering a safe, easy to access service is sending women’s rights back 50 years. Do we really want someone else to determine when we can or can’t have children? Disgusting.
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Really interesting distinction you’ve made there! I agree with it. I don’t see it as “murdering a baby” because in my view at that stage the foetus is still part of the woman’s body. If it could live independantly without intervention then maybe that’s different – which is why they have the time limit on abortions.
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I agree with you. I am pro choice, but I could never do this myself. I recently had a friend who wanted my opinion on whether she should abort or not (she is financially secure, just wanted to wait a few years to have a baby. She is not married but doesn’t ever want to be so that was not an issue). I couldnt help her. I didn’t want to be part of something I don’t fully agree with, given her circumstances. Am I a bad friend? I’m not sure. I didn’t want to influence her either way, and told her it was a personal decision. It really solidified what my real feelings are about abortion, though.
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Amelia you are actually a great friend for letting her make up her own mind rather than trying to instill your opinion on her…. well done! (I’m not saying your opinion is wrong, its just nice to hear you not try to push your ideas onto someone elses life long decision! if someone else has to live with the decision then they need to be the one to make it)
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If you’re using contraception that would suggest that you’re not interested in having a baby, right? So if it fails, is not abortion an extension of the contraception?
The problem is, you don’t know the contraception has failed until you’re, you know, pregnant. If you don’t want to have an abortion, don’t. But you don’t get to tell anyone else what to do.
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Kitten I respect your views, but you are not pro-choice. What you are describing is a set of circumstances where a woman can make a choice. For the bulk of women, this would be an anti-choice stance. Under your ideology women’s choices would be highly restricted, so you are not pro-choice.
Furthermore, this encourages false rape allegations in terrified women that don’t have any other options.
I don’t believe you can have qualifying circumstances – you either believe in choice, or you don’t.
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I’m okay with that. I don’t really need a label for my views, and neither camp fits comfortably with me as I’ve explained.
In response to those such as Kris2040 who have raised the issue of failed contraception, I think it would be devastating to fall pregnant when you are trying not to, but I also think that it’s entirely common knowledge that no contraception is 100% guaranteed. It’s an educated risk. And also in response to Kris, I said I haven’t judged others for aborting pregnancies of inconvenience or assumed I “get to tell others what to do”. I think that is an unnecessarily snarky thing to say just because I have a different opinion.
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As long as you’re only applying it to yourself and not others, that’s OK. But you’re not. You’re saying that those who have contraception fail, for example, ride it out (by going through with the pregnancy). Is having an abortion not taking responsibility?
As MOTCM points out – you’re either for choice or you’re not. And you appear to be OK with that, so my point still stands, whether it hurts your feelings or not. No-one’s asking you to have an abortion against your wishes. What I or anyone else does should they find themselves pregnant and not feel in a position to have a baby for whatever reason is nothing to do with you, and you don’t get to decide which cases are worthy or not.
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Im pro choice, but I also have never been in a situation where I had to consider it. For a man or any person to say woman who are raped shouldn’t have an abortion is a little closed minded and needs to realise that if you don’t allow abortion the consiquences could be worse.
I have a friend who was gang raped and decided to have the baby with the attitude it isn’t her unborn child’s fault, she loved her daughter to bits, got married and her husband became “dad” to the outside world they looked the perfect happy family. Her daughter couldn’t handle being a child of rape, no the mother didn’t tell her as a child but the truth was eventually let out the bag, her daughter really struggled and fell into drugs, alcohol and depression, she committed sucide and her mother, my friend had a break down and blames it all on her self. It just goes to show its not just the woman who are raped that suffer, it can be family, friends and the child itself.
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What a terribly sad story
I hope your poor friend can find some peace in time, and remember her daughter when she was happy, as that would have flowed on from having a loving home. None of what happened to the poor girl is the mother’s fault. None of it. I hope her and her husband can find some peace, my heart goes out to them.
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I’m pro-choice and I know, only too well, the awfulness of having to decide whether or not to proceed with a pregnancy. It is not something I would wish on anyone and I don’t believe any woman could ever make it lightly.
I’ve talked myself into accepting that I won’t have children. Mainly because of a) severe mental illness on my side of the family, b) I don’t think my partner is ready for kids nor really wants them, c) I’m a bit of a screw-up and I don’t know if I’d be a good enough mother.
Of course that didn’t stop me having a pain in my chest today when I was watching a beautiful baby girl waving at the lady behind her at the supermarket checkout
But a baby is for life, not just about whatever my maternal instincts are towards little ones.
So what do I do? I use contraception. That to me is the best way of having a normal relationship with my partner but not taking the risk of bringing a child into the world who may not have the capable parents it deserves.
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Brilliant article. We hear a lot about abortion, but i never hear much about the help these individuals are providing to the children born because of a lack of access to abortion. (It may be legal in the USA, but it is difficult to access)
Religion has not place in policy.
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