AVN President Meryl Dorey
If you haven’t heard of the Australian Vaccination Network (aka the anti-vaxxers) and assume that opposition to vaccines must be confined to a handful of loons living in tree houses, you need to know what sort of people belong to the Australian Vaccination Network (AVN) and what lengths they’ll go to, to distress, frighten and misinform parents.
Until about three years ago whenever any media outlet ran a story about vaccination they would go to founder & President, Meryl Dorey for a comment on behalf of the AVN.
The comments she gave to the media were never positive and rarely factual, relying on bogus science (or no science at all), fear-mongering about the side effects and dangers of vaccinations, and conspiracy theories about the power and influence of pharmaceutical manufacturers.
READ: 9 MYTHS ABOUT VACCINATION BUSTED BY SCIENCE – one of Mamamia’s most-shared posts ever
What changed the situation was the death of a baby from whooping cough. Her name was Dana McCaffrey and you can read her tragic story and see and interview with her parents here. At only 3 weeks of age, baby Dana was too young to be vaccinated and her innocent parents were unaware that they lived in the region with the lowest level of vaccination in the state.
Baby Dana McCaffrey died after contracting whooping cough
After their baby died, they questioned why health authorities had not warned them about this. “Did I miss a pamphlet in that bag of information they give you in hospital?” Dana’s mother Toni McCaffrey anguished. She hadn’t. No warning had been given.
So Toni and her husband Dave went public to warn other parents of very young children. They have made a point of never suggesting that the AVN or its activities were the cause of the baby’s death, even though the AVN are most active in the area in which they live – the area with a dangerously high number of non-vaccinated children.
This respect has not been reciprocated.
Meryl Dorey attempted to get Dana’s medical records the day before her funeral, claiming that she wanted to see evidence that the baby really had pertussis (the medical name for whooping cough – for which there is no cure or treatment).
Despite repeated requests from Toni and Dave McCaffrey to leave them alone and stop using their baby’s death in the AVN’s false propaganda, Meryl Dorey continues to mention Dana in her attacks on doctors and anyone who supports vaccination.
It was this behaviour by Ms Dorey (and a coordinated effort by many people who gave up their time to expose her actions) that caused a spotlight to be put on her by the media. Now if any news outlet goes to her they are quite likely to mention her anti-vaccine activities.
Most credible news sources refuse to give her oxygen. But still, Meryl Dorey and the AVN continue to speak at public festivals and even in birth classes, trying to scare parents with misinformation about vaccines – something for which there is no scientific proof in any country in the world. Ever.
But has Ms Dorey learnt anything from the way the mainstream media has turned on her? Has she reconsidered what she does and says? Well, no, she hasn’t. Within the last week she has affirmed the official AVN position that members should not contact grieving parents of vaccine-damaged children (mysteriously, none of these children’s stories are ever reported in the media, and the AVN claim this is because of a ‘cover-up’ by big pharmaceutical companies and the government. Really?).
Outrageously however, Meryl Dorey last week encouraged her members to contact parents who lost a child to SIDS to see if they can find out which vaccines ’caused’ the death.
From Tory Shephard in The Punch:
AVN head Meryl Dorey seems to suggest she knock on the recently bereaved parents’ door and ask if their dead baby had just been immunised. She dismisses SIDS as a “garbage can diagnosis”. She says maybe their baby “died for the greater good”, and says ambulance officers are forbidden to ask about vaccinations when they arrive at a home where a baby has died.
I asked Ms Dorey about what seemed to be a suggested death door knock. She says no, she just said “the only thing you can do is to try and contact the families involved to find out if the children were vaccinated before their death”,
Vaccines cause SIDS? I hear you ask. Well, yes, according to anti-vaccination campaigners at the AVN. THEY claim the three big side effects of vaccines are SIDS, autism and the injuries seen in Shaken Baby Syndrome, and to a true believer vaccines are the only possible ’causes’ of these. This is, of course, absolute rubbish with not a skerrick of scientific evidence. In fact the opposite is true. In every credible study ever conducted, vaccines have been found to have no connection to autism or any of the other things the AVN claim.
You might think I’m exaggerating, but I’m not. I have been following these people for many years and even so I still get occasional surprises as they invent new terrors that can be used to frighten parents away from protecting their children. If I had another thousand words I could talk about the lies they tell unsuspecting parents about vaccine ingredients.
REMEMBER: there is no cure or treatment for many of the diseases that we vaccinate for. They are potentially deadly and highly contagious which is why vaccinations were introduced. And the effectiveness of vaccinations rely on ‘herd immunity’ which means everyone needs to vaccinate or these diseases can continue to spread.
Which brings us to the current push for the AVN to change its name.
Australian Network for Plant Conservation. Australian Network for Art and Technology. Australian Network on Disability. Australian Fitness Network. Australian African Network. Australian Homestay Network. Australian Vaccination Network.
One of these names is not like the others. There is a network devoted to conservation of plants, one with the objective of supporting artists, another which works to aid people with disabilities, one which wants everyone to become healthier, one which provides support and community for migrants from Africa, and one which links people with holiday accommodation.
All of these organisations with “network” in their name have as their aims the promotion of what the other words in their names mean.
The exception is the Australian Vaccination Network, because despite what the average person might think from just seeing the name, this organisation exists for the sole purpose of opposing vaccinations of all kinds against all diseases for all people of all ages. There are no exceptions. I have asked many times for an example of a single vaccine that the AVN would support or consider worthwhile and I have never even received a cricket chirp in response. The organisation claims to be pro-choice, but the only choice that they consider is to say “No”.
It hasn’t always been this way. For some time the AVN was named the Vaccination Awareness Network, a name which suggested that they might be questioning supporters of the greatest life-saving invention in the history of medicine.
AVN
There is now a move to get the relevant government authority to force the AVN to change its name to something more representative of its aims.
The President of the AVN, Meryl Dorey, is squealing about this and making absurd claims about dictatorships and fascism and freedom of speech and how an evil conspiracy of doctors and skeptics is trying to suppress her right to provide ‘balanced’ information to parents.
She is even claiming that nobody can tell any organisation what its name should be, but I know I had to make two passes through the bureaucracy last year to register a business name because my first choice shared 80% of its letters with a company in another state.
I believe in freedom of speech, no matter how bizarre or unhinged are the things people want to say, but I draw a line when what people say can cause harm. One protection against causing harm is transparency in what organisations and lobby groups are called.
While the Australian Vaccination Network has a name that hides its real objectives and maybe even lends credibility to its dangerous activities the children of Australia aren’t safe. Their parents might just turn to the AVN because of its duplicitous name and trust what they are told. If the name reflects the antipathy to all vaccinations that Ms Dorey and its members show then anyone approaching them will be forewarned and prepared.
Maybe just call it the Anti-Vaccination Network. Then they don’t have to redesign the logo and stationery and they can keep the same domain name for their web site. Easy. Half an hour at Fair Trading and it’s all done. And then perhaps the unsuspecting people who Google “vaccination” and click on the first result (which is, terrifyingly, the AVN website) will at least be aware of the tainted message they’re being sold.
WHAT CAN YOU DO?
1. The “Stop the Australian Vaccination Network” (SAVN) was formed in mid 2009 following the death of baby Dana McCaffery of Pertussis, a preventable illness. We believe that the anti-vaccination propaganda issued by the AVN and its President, Meryl Dorey, is a menace to public health. Stop The AVN comprises over 2000 scientists, doctors, nurses, paramedics, and laymen. You can join us on Facebook here. And the Twitter hashtag is #stopavn
2. The Australian Medical Association (AMA) are calling on the NSW Government to force the AVN to change their name (ANV is a national organisation but it’s registered in NSW). You can urge the NSW Premier Barry O’Farrell to act on the AMA’s call via
email: office@premier.nsw.gov.au
Twitter: @barryofarrell
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/barryofarrellmp
Peter Bowditch writes for several skeptical and scientific publications and runs the web site at www.ratbags.com. In real life he is married with two daughters and pays the bills by being an IT consultant and TAFE teacher.
Comments
755 Comments so far
Perhaps Meryl Dorey should focus her energies on establishing childcare/daycare centres for parents who don’t want to vaccinate their kids. That way, parents could choose whether to put their kids into centres based on whether other kids are vaccinated. I don’t know, just saying I guess. By the way, I’m an emergency department nurse and I’ve seen kids brought in with whooping cough. How any parents could not vaccinate their kids is beyond me. I have a friend who chooses not to vaccinate who’s attitude is “if they contract the illness, their bodies will fight it and they will develop the appropriate antibodies”.
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Yes yes yes I’d Tripple like this comment if he like button hadn’t disappeared!
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My grandfather caught whooping cough of his neighbours unvaccinated baby, who also got whooping. It did wonders for his asbestosis that he recently developed.
Both parties almost died.
Rationalise that one away, anti-vaxxers.
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you cant argue with science anti vaxxers! I get upset thinking of this lady and her offsiders contacting parents after they have suffered a devastating loss– for what purpose- to make them feel guilty?- aaahhhh!
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Um, you can argue with science and scientists do it all the time. Otherwise all scientific enquiry would eventually grind to a standstill and there’d be no advancements made in any field. Many scientific principles and findings are later overturned with more research and advanced techniques.
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You’re right, MG, however the key in your statement is that theories are overturned with research and advanced techniques.
To this point, there has been no credible research published to support Meryl Dorey and the AVN’s theories on vaccination. The one paper that they relied so heavily on has been long since discredited and the researcher barred.
I’m all for a good scientific argument, but without further science to back it up, it is nothing more than windless theorising.
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Or more correctly, the AVN’s HYPOTHESES on vaccination. Not theories. In science, theories aren’t hunches.
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Too right CBR, sorry for the oversight. My uni lecturers would be horrified if they saw that!
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Yeah, that wasn’t Brennies point.
Anti vaxers are famous for not understanding science, indeed, they bastardise it at every opportunity. From posting links to studies that they think back up their argument (when nearly 100% of the time, it is the complete opposite) to claiming that their anecdotes (my child had the MMR, then three months later an elephant fell on him and he broke his leg.. OMG it is the vakseeeens!) are more relevant than actual objective, verifiable evidence.
The body of evidence *against* anti vax claims is monumental. Not once has a single anti vaxer been able to provide a lick of evidence for the supposed link between the MMR and autism, or Gardasil and the host of insane adverse reactions that anti vaxers claim (one only has to look at the logical vacuum that is sanevax for that amount of burning stupid).
Not once.
In fact, Meryl Dorey keeps banging on about the thousands of adverse reports she has recieved, yet has not once provided evidence that any of these claims have any validity, are even based in reality.
Anti vaxers try to argue with science, and they fail *every time*.
And I do mean *EVERY TIME*.
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Grumpy: yeah, but they argue with science, facts and evidence based ideas. And supply new, investigated hypothesis when picking said fight.
They don’t say “water is magic, you’re wrong, nyer nyer nyer.” Big difference.
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“Um, you can argue with science and scientists do it all the time.”
Arguing with science by doing more science isn’t arguing with science at all. It is science.
Arguing with science using unfounded opinion and mangled statistics as your weapons of choice, however, isn’t science. It’s just baseless arguing.
The AVN do the latter and show no sign of comprehending the former.
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Absolutely agree. I wish Playgroup Australia had a similar policy. I have spent the last 6 months staying away from my playgroup as I asked the coordinator to do an anonymous survey while I was pregnant, and found out 4 families were unvaccinated! When I rang head office, they said they had never considered a policy of excluding unvaccinated kids.
So I made the decision to miss our weekly get togethers, which my kids adore, for the safety and protection of their baby brother.
I support choice in most parenting matters, but not this one. It’s life or death. Go away and live in a big commune of unvaccinated people if you choose not to conform to Australian society expectations.
Once again, like freebirth, I wonder what people in 3rd world countries would think of people in the first world who reject life saving vaccinations, and medical assistance for their birth……
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Meant to say I agree with exclusion from preschool, child care, kindy etc of non vaxxers.
Wouldn’t let me edit.
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I think they would be confused. People in developing countries have been known to walk for days to a vaccination clinic. Recent refugees vaccinate their children quite happily. I’ve never seen an unvaccinated child of refugee parents.
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As usual, lots of debate and a fair bit of downright nastiness too. Problem is that these debates never change anyone’s mind and the problem persists.
I don’t think we will ever have a situation where parents can be forced to vaccinate. So really, what can concerned parents do? Demand children are excluded from child are centres and school? Parks and shopping centres as well? Should we ban them from our homes too? How will we know which of our friends and families children are unvaccinated? Will we ask everyone that our children have contact with?
I think it’s time to stop trying to convince people who can’t be convinced and to try and find solutions, whatever they may be.
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Polio.
My aunty conracted it as a child and has spent the rest of her life in calipers (in Italy). My own FIL contracted polio as a baby (in Australia) and spent 6 years of his very young life in hospital. When he came home he called his Mum ‘Nurse’ because that is what he thought she was.
He made a full recovery but nearly died many times.
Why anyone would avoid vaccinations is beyond me. The diseases can cause great distress to individuals, families and communities. People even die from their diseases – why take the risk?
P.S. My own son is on the autism spectrum – Asperger’s. And there is no way I would connect it to him being vaccinated. Not. Even. Close.
Andrew Wakefield who wrote that paper was found fraudulent and guilty of misconduct anyway – you would be foolish to believe that the MMR causes autism (and bowel disease!). Link at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
Seriously, the MMR austism scare is the greatest hoax in medical history…..and I’m afraid people are still falling for it.
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Since you advocate sticking to the facts so much, please correct the statement that there is no treatment for pertussis.
There are a number of antibiotics that are available and used to treat pertussis (source: http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/about/diagnosis-treatment.html)
Does the author really not know this?
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Where did the author say there is no treatment for pertussis? Peter said that there is no treatment or cure for many of the diseases we vaccinate for, and that is a true statement. For pertussis, there is treatment but no cure.
What’s your point?
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A quote directly from the article:
“Meryl Dorey attempted to get Dana’s medical records the day before her funeral, claiming that she wanted to see evidence that the baby really had pertussis (the medical name for whooping cough – for which there is no cure or treatment).”
If the author did not intend this then Mamamia’s subediting needs some work.
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See below.
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Actually, he is correct. The antibiotics used to “treat” pertussis are merely to reduce the infectivity to others. They do not reduce the effect of the disease on the already affected individual, unless they are commenced very early in the course of treatment. Somebody who already has established pertussis will not be “cured” by the use of antibiotics. Medical treatment for pertussis is supportive in nature only, and in the most severe cases involves mechanical ventilation and muscle paralysis to keep the body oxygenated while it clears the damage already done. Often, especially in the case of infants, even our maximal medical therapy is not enough.
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Maybe they should try homeopathic remedies and a bit of spinal manipulation to cure pertussis?
Oh, I forgot – Homeopathy and Chiropractic only work on you when you are well.
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You’re right – but so is the author of the article. While it is true that antibiotics are used for pertussis, the main purpose of this is to reduce the spread of the infection.
If antibiotics are given in the first few days of the illness (which is difficult, as many people assume pertussis is a cold or the flu at first) they reduce the transmission of the disease, and may shorten the amount of time that the person is sick.
However, they do not make the disease better, and they don’t fix the airway problems that can be deadly for small children. They die even if they are on antibiotics – and no medicines are available that can fix this.
So while you’re right in saying that antibiotics are used to treat pertussis, the author of the article is also correct in saying that antibiotics don’t stop the disease from being deadly. Hope that clears things up!
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Whenever I see the vaccination debate come up yet again, I think of the absolute terror that must have run through a neighbourhood when a child was diagnosed with polio all those years ago.
Can you IMAGINE how you would feel if your child was sitting next to that kid at school? Can you IMAGINE the fear you would feel, wondering if your child was going to contract that disease and end up either crippled or dead?
That seals it for me every time.
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I’m a fan of heard vaccination.Obviously then I know very little about this woman/group so I’m curious – what’s in it for her to promote anti-vaccination etc? Does she have a separate or personal reason for this campaign?
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She says her own son was severely vaccine damaged, yet provides no proof when asked.
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Yup, she sure does.
In the past, she has told people that she is going to get certain vaccines tested, and asked for donations, some of which were *very* generous – only to never get the vaccines tested.
She has a magazine, of which subscribers were supposed to get six issues a year. In the past two years, only three magazines have been issued. See here for a very good roundup of this: http://www.antivaxxers.com/?p=4486
She did a donation drive for “bounty bag” mis-information packs, and then never delivered said bounty bags.
In her case against the HCCC earlier this year, she did yet another donation drive for lawyer costs, only to then take on a pro bono lawyer, none of the money was ever refunded.
There is plenty more evidence regarding her fleecing her followers, and promoting herself to even more people to do exactly the same thing:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/47704677/Meryl-Doreys-Trouble-With-the-Truth-Part-1 (this is only part one of a three part series. If you click on the users (Ken McLeod) scribd username, you will see even more evidence of Doreys fraud and blatant lies)
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Yup she sure does.
She has fleeced her members from hundreds of thousands of dollars.
She promised to do vaccine testing on some various vaccines, did a donation drive (of which, some were VERY generous) and then promptly did nothing in regards to said vaccine testing.
She “produces” a magazine called “Living Wisdom”, of which there are supposed to be six issues a year. In the last two years, only three have surfaced. See here for a brilliant breakdown of the magazine debacle: http://www.antivaxxers.com/?p=4486
Then there was the court case against the HCCC earlier this year, in which she begged for donations for lawyer costs, only to then take on a pro bono lawyer. The money was never refunded.
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Also, for a more concise record of all her fraud and outright deceit, have a look at this series written by the brilliant Ken McLeod – “Meryl Doreys Trouble with the truth”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/47704677/Meryl-Doreys-Trouble-With-the-Truth-Part-1
Go through his scribd account to access the rest in the series, as well as other damning evidence against the sham that is the AVN
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I think she does believe what she says and thinks she is doing good. Which is what makes this harder. How do you change someone’s mind that is already made up?
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Sometimes I think she’s in it for altruistic reasons but then I look at the dismal failure to deliver a magazine at the promised rate of six issues per year while still calling for more people to subscribe (and still promising six issues per 12 month sub) – and I have to wonder if I’m being too generous.
And she must, by now, know that she has no understanding of science or statistics. Her errors are too numerous to list here but they are pointed out directly and on various blogs and other fora and yet the same errors are repeated, time and time again,without correction.
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Yeah I understand what you are saying Andy, but on the point of “she must, by now, know that she has no understanding of science or statistics” – unfortunately I think she believes she does have an understanding. It is possible for one to believe themselves to have a higher understanding than they do.
One of the problems is that the science and statistics is hard for a lot of people to understand. Whereas the information anti-vaxers put out there is easy to understand and sounds plausible, if you don’t have an understanding of the science.
I do agree that some of her behaviours, like taking subscriptions for a magazine and not delivering any, is an odd thing to do if you were altruistic. But believing what you believe and wanting to get your message out there to help others, doesn’t mean you can’t also want to make money.
Of course, at the end of the day I don’t really know and can’t know what is going on in her head.
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My sister has decided not to vaccinate her few-months-old baby. I have voiced my concerns about people not vaccinating (in general) but I know she is intent on going the ‘natural’ route. I know I will have our children vaccinated (when that time comes) – certainly. Any suggestions on how to approach this subject and voice my concerns? I care very much for her baby and it saddens me that the baby could become ill in the future from something preventable.
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The graveyard is full of children who died ‘naturally.’
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Your comment is DISGUSTING!!!!!!!!!!!!
The graveyard is full of children full stop. Diying from all sorts of things, including vaccines, vaccine preventable diseases and heck even murder.
Scaremongering to its fullest extent!!!!
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Exclamation use to its fullest extent!!!!
I believe Kelly’s point was that many children have died as a result of parent’s choosing the “natural” way to raise their children.
Yes, children die regularly. Yes, it is tragic and traumatic. No, sometimes it wasn’t inevitable and it could have been prevented.
Before jumping on someone else’s comments, letting it roll through your thoughts a few times and contemplating the author’s meaning is advisable.
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I always find it ironic that for people who use emotive arguments all the time, antivaxers then squeal about how unfairly emotive the suggestion to go and look at graves from pre-vaccination days to see how many little kids died of things we have never seen thanks to vaccination.
Most people who have done any genealogy (or you know, just spoke to their elderly relos) can tell you that there was a brother or sister or cousin who died from diphtheria or had polio or similar.
If you’re so keen on the TROOOOOOF getting around, why does the actual truth of many families losing kids to diseases that, again, we have never seen, thanks to vaccinating freak you out so?
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I think you have used up your exclamation mark quota for the year.
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500 million dead from Smallpox alone is not scaremongering but a simple fact. Raising children *naturally* provides no protection from disease. In my family, four generations ago, you were not put in the genealogy unless you made it to one. Many didn’t.
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But it’s true. Death is one of nature’s ways of dealing with “deadly” diseases. We don’t often see it in the first world because…
1: Vaccination keeps possibility of infection low for most infants.
2: Incredible advances in medicine means some kids will survive infection – though not necessarily unscathed.
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Maybe find some easy-to-understand information on the benefits of vaccines that she can read through? As I understand it (and I’m definitely not expert), our bodies create antibodies to fight diseases, and vaccinations simply help speed up this process of developing antibodies so it could still be considered natural…right?
I guess if it were me and my sister I would ask why she didn’t want to vaccinate and take it from there. Maybe when her baby is older and/or when she has more info about it she will reconsider.
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Maybe send her the myth-busting article about vaccinations published a while back on Mamamia. The link is in the article above under the first couple of paragraphs. I shared it with a friend who said she doesn’t plan to vaccinate her future children. I don’t know if she read it but I really hope she did and that it debunked a lot of the rubbish she had been led to believe through getting to know a few rabbid anti-vaxxers.
Good luck. It will be a very tricky thing to have different views about.
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Gently suggest to your sister that she check her sources for validity. I have not come across any anti-vaccination information that is not rooted in conspiracy theory, psuedoscience, or misinterpretating or misunderstanding the science. Also please explain to her that it is not a decision that should be made based on emotion, like fear, or knowing that baby will cry afterwards. No mother likes seeing their kids in pain, and needles do hurt – nobody enjoys getting them! But these are serious diseases we vaccinate for. You need to be completely objective, and when you are able to do this, it all boils down to a simple risk/benefit analysis.
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Does she give any other reason for her choice? Like being worried about side effects etc? Try talking to her about the outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases lately and the effects of those diseases on babies and young children. Point out how effectivce vaccines are at preventing these diseases.
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Mia,
I love that you are so passionate about this but every time you do a post about this topic it just draws the crazes out of the woodwork and it gives them yet another platform to spew their lies and false propaganda.
There must be a better way to target this.
Why can’t MM try and start a fundraising drive to put together a fact sheet, possibily containing the information from you vaccination myths busted blog post and get them printed and put into maternal health centres, maternity hospitals, baby shops, playgroups and the Bounty bags (if they still exist)
You could do a double sided info sheet with the lies the avn say and direct people to the trusted government sites if they want to do some of their own research.
Everyone here who reads MM knows about these nut jobs, it is the new parents out there in the community who are the most at risk.
Lets all put out money where our mouths are and raise awareness where it is needed the most.
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We already have myth buster sheets available from public health units in each state.
Hospitals, GP clinics (through the division of gps in their areas) and maternal and child health centres often produce their own information sheets. It’s part of the informed consent procedure.
I’ve offered these information sheets to parents wavering on the issue and have often had them refused.
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Some may think this is extreme, but:
I asked my immediate family to all get vaccinated, and they all did willingly and happily, except one… she wanted to take something homeopathic and when I asked if she could prove her serology (so that she could have cuddles with baby), and she said it doesn’t, then she eventually changed her mind.
I would normally feel bad for influencing someone like that, but when it came to my baby’s health/life I had to do my best to feel I was protecting him.
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I don’t think that is extreme…I did the same, I also would not allow a friend who does not vaccinate near bub until she was vaccinated. Your job is to protect your little one!
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Not extreme at all. A close friend has done the same with her friends and family.
I am scheduled to get a shot also, so I can visit her soon.
I will ask the same of my family when the time comes.
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I wish the government would give incentive for grandparents and other family members of new babies to have whooping cough vaccine. None of my husband’s family agreed to have the vaccine before my daughter was born, despite it being free, and unfortunately I didn’t have the courage to tell the, they couldn’t see her unless they did. Luckily due to distance they didn’t see her until she was a few months old and had already had her first two vaccinations which made me feel ambit better. But it is unbelievable how selfish people are for the sake of a small needle that will cost them nothing!
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A lot of state governments do give free vacinations for grandparents – the NSW has just stopped this scheme in 2012.
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Victoria has just stopped the free boosters for grandparents too this year, but still offer one for parents.
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Apparently in Qld if you say you’re going to be around small children, babysitting, or a primary carer, you can get the booster for free.
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Anonymous, I would support that decision 100% if I were a family member. A quick jab is definitely worth it for cuddles with a newborn!
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that’s not extreme, that’s sensible- i had all my immediate family members get whooping cough boosters when i had my 2nd baby as whooping cough was going around the community that year. they all happily did not and got plenty of cuddles. babies don’t get whooping cough needle til 6month go age. i work with children with disabilities- mostly genetic of origin- not at all linked to immunisation. i happily immunised my 2 kids.
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site a bit dodgy today- can’t seem to like or edit- i meant to say ‘they happily DID and got plenty of cuddles’…
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Not extreme at all. I paid for my boosters so I wouldn’t put my friends’ newborns at risk.
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I totally agree with most of this article and it’s points about what this woman is suggesting re. grieving families being out of line. However, I also felt like it was very biased. Especially that yellow “WARNING!” graphic with the highly unflattering picture of Meryl Dorey.
Not that there is anything wrong with an opinion piece, I guess it just seems like pro-vaccination is a strong platform of MamaMia and this article is very much in favour of one side of the story. That’s the prerogative of this site and it’s editors I guess.
Agree with the name change petition though! The AVN as it currently stands is very misleadingly named.
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If people cannot vaccinate because of genuine medical reasons, or follow a delayed schedule for those same reasons..fair enough. I just cannot get my head around all of the garbage that comes out of a lot of the followers of AVN, and yes, they should have to change their name! What REALLY gets my goat is the usual “Big Pharma”, “Doctors get paid to get you to vaccinate”, “You are a sheep if you vaccinate”, “It’s a CONSPIRACY to destroy humankind, starting with the children” “DO YOUR RESEARCH” bs that you can pretty much predict, word for word, when a pro v anti vax debate starts anywhere! I resent being told by anti-vaxxers “Do your research, that is all I am saying”…guess what idiot?? I HAVE DONE MY RESEARCH (as have many, many other medical professionals, but don’t let THAT get in the way of a good conspiracy theory) except I used genuine medical articles, papers etc, not the made up posters showing ALL THE SCARY chemicals that any fool could put together, given half an hour and Publisher.
Bring on the RESEARCH…please do. Preferably research using medical facts, not the opinions of easily swayed and naive fools who have bought into Meryl Dorey’s garbage.
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I cant believe these fruitloops have so much support.
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Once again, any one who has an alternatiove view is somehow mentally disturbed!!!!
So are all chiropractors, natural paths and any other alternative practioners.
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What’s a natural path?
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I could be wrong, but I think it is one that meanders gently through a wooded copse, ending in a clearing where pixies do expressive dance
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Ha! Comment of the day right here.
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Laughed out loud
and I rarely lol on the internet.
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Absolutely! They are dangerous for anything other than for minor ailments and relaxation. Otherwise they are dangerous and not to be trusted.
Anyone whose qualifications come from a full fee paying private college, whose sole entry requirement is the ability to pay, raises my suspicions. If they were so smart why didnt they go to university?
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Just spent ages looking at the photo of baby Dana holding her Daddys hands. You can imagine them locked in eye contact moments before. Such a poignant reminder of the need to vaccinate.
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This article had me almost in tears.
I couldn’t read the whole thing… once it got to the part about SIDS is a rubbish diagnosis I had to switch off.
SIDS is real. SIDS happens. It’s sad to say but sometimes babies just die.
Mine did. She wasn’t given any vac aside from the ones in hospital, so vac had nothing to do with it (she had been due for 2 month ones the day before she died, but as she had a cold the Dr postponed).
IF she had had the vac and still died then this ‘woman’ would blame the vac…??? and the fact she wasn’t given it, what’s your answer to that Meryl???
This whole thing makes me want to scream.
Yes, we have a choice to vaccinate. No, not everyone can be vaccinated. But herd vaccination works – its proven. And organisations like this can undermine the hard work that has been done to irradiate some of the horrible childhood diseases that killed (or permanently disabled) so many young children in past generations. (as an aside, does that ever get taken into account by ANV? That infant and childhood mortality are lower now?)
I can’t comment on much else – as I didn’t read it all. But I hope that the message is getting around that ANV cannot be trusted….
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I am so sorry for your loss Michelle x
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I’m so sorry you lost your baby. I can’t begin to imagine how upsetting it must be to read this garbage about SIDS not being real.
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So sorry for your loss Michelle. I can truly not imagine anything worse.
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How disgraceful that the writer of this article take everything that Meryl said completely out of context. Meryl used the word ‘can’, meaning it would be the only way to know one way or another. She NEVER at any time used the word ‘should’. Why don’t you publish her second comment where Meryl Dorey clearly said the following :
“…I never suggested that she contact the families. I simply said that it was the only way to know and that would be really hard.I have never contacted a family that lost a child and I never would – but if her friends child was one that passed away, she may know that the child is vaccinated”. I’ll be very surprised if my comment makes it beyond the moderation stage, but if it doesn’t I will be sharing it and making it public.
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I never saw her second comment, but I agree teh author has manip0ulated its context and so has Mia!
It clearly states that the childs mum is a friend!!!!!
I am shocked that not only has the author stooped so low to make up an outright lie, but that the rest of the readers are falling for it!!!!
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Nowhere in the comment does it imply that the OP is friends with all of the people that supposedly suffered cases of SIDS.
There is no manipulation here, well actually – there is. By both you and Liz Hempel, trying to twist words and ram them in where they won’t fit.
No surprises there, anti vaxers are well practiced at it.
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Scott, your a lier at its best.
we weren’t twisting any words, just simply stating the facts.
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No, you were indeed trying to twist it so that Dorey came out smelling of roses when all she has done is make herself smell more like ….
(and the word is ‘liar’, not ‘lier’)
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Liz. He did not take anything out of context. Dorey clearly advised that “the only thing you can do is try to contact the families involved…”
There is no other way of looking at this statement. It is clear cut, she means exactly what she has written. She is advising people that the only course of action they can take is to contact the grieving families.
She then contradicted herself by saying that she never said that anyone should contact the families.
How is that taking anything out of context? Screenshots have been taken of BOTH comments. Nothing out of context here.
The only thing that is out of context is your bending over backwards to try and convince people that somehow the use of the word “can” somehow invalidates everything, when it clearly doesn’t.
Thanks for showing us just how duplicitous Dorey can be by advising that she completed contradicted herself once her first statement was aired publicly.
*slow hand clap*
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Scott Hansen. your a lier. he has used that sentence to create the idea that she has gone to an outright low!!!!!..
The fact is, that the person she made a suggestion to, is a friend of the parent. As a friend, they probably wont mind.
The heading of the article makes it sound like she was telling her to contact a stranger.
I think I am deakling with a whole bunch of liers. And a thousands more who believe their lies.
And for the record, my child is vaccinated. But I have friends who rightly so chose not to and the stuff they have to oput up with because of nasty people like Mia and yourselves is disgrceful!!!!!
Mia, each time you go on about this, you come across as a nasty piece of work. And you know what?
Karma is not so nice.
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“Scott Hansen. your a lier. he has used that sentence to create the idea that she has gone to an outright low!!!!!..”
// No, Peter didn’t need to “create” anything. The entire post is there for all to see. She has gone to a new low, no fabrication is needed.
“The fact is, that the person she made a suggestion to, is a friend of the parent. As a friend, they probably wont mind.”
// Meryl is not implying that she contact a “friend of a friend”. She is outright implying that she (and others) contact ALL grieving families.
“The heading of the article makes it sound like she was telling her to contact a stranger.”
// She is. Look at the word “families”. It does not say “family” (not that that is any better). Even if it is a friend, it is still reprehensible to ask said family for proof of vaccination status, only to sate some delusional theory of vaccine damage.
“I think I am deakling with a whole bunch of liers. And a thousands more who believe their lies.”
// Think that all you wish. That kind of thinking is the reason why you put your trust into con-women such as Dorey. (by the way – its ‘liars’, not ‘liers’)
“And for the record, my child is vaccinated. But I have friends who rightly so chose not to and the stuff they have to oput up with because of nasty people like Mia and yourselves is disgrceful!!!!!”
// Good to hear, however – maybe your friends need to have a proper education in regards to vaccination, indeed science. They are contributing to the breakdown of herd immunity, and that is never a good thing.
“Mia, each time you go on about this, you come across as a nasty piece of work. And you know what?”
// Mia didn’t write this. Even if she did, all the article is doing is presenting the truth behind a dangerous, deceptive and duplicitous woman who will stop at nothing to ensure she can continue to line her pockets with the cash of the gullible, all the while demonising one of the greatest medical advancements in mankinds history.
“Karma is not so nice.”
// Karma doesn’t exist.
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Scott, I think you are arguing with Meryl. Anon is taking it personally, and writes just like her. Do you think Meryl Dorey would stoop so low as to post anonymously about herself…….I do.
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Although the arguments are pretty much the same (non existent), Dorey at least has a better grasp of the English language than Anon.
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“Dorey at least has a better grasp of the English language than Anon.”
Marginally. But I think you mean a “…a better grasp of the English language **then** Anon.”
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Ms Dorey’s suggestion about contacting grieving families reminds me of Henry II speaking of Thomas Beckett, “Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?”
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Learn to spell – people might take you more seriously. Or you could, you know, not spout crazy conspiracy theories, that’d help too.
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Stop your lying.
It has nothing to do with teh spelling mistakes that you wont take me seriously.
IAdmit it- Your not going to be inetrested regardless, as I have shown time and time again, that there are many highly educated scientist who oppose vaccinaes. BUT, you and everyone else choose to tarnish them. Worst still, you mock, belittle and demean their intelligence and ability to understand science. but, yet they are scientist.
If you have studied science, you would know the fundamentals to how research is conducted, as to how to analyse research and look deepr into the statistical procedures used.
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I have studied the scientific method – extensively in my undergrad and post grad degrees – I know enough to stick to my own field – when I go outside of my field everyone has the right to question why I say I know more than those who have dedicated their research to the area.
That is how research works – the credibility of the source is valid.
No conspiracy
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And herein lies the concern. You’re an advocate for the AVN, yes? An organisation that comes up first in a google search of the word “vaccination”. An organisation that is gaining lots of traction and followers. God help us.
Yet, you can’t spell the word “liar”. I cannot fathom how you can gain any ground and anyone can find you reputable over the evidence from educated scientists. I’ll be taking my advice from the scientists and doctors who have years of university study behind then, and actually know how to spell basic words in the English language.
This disturbs me.
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Oh, and here are the two screenshots – evidence that Meryl Dorey is rather bad at covering her tracks.
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Liz Hempel,
What nonsense.
How can Meryl Dorey’s comments be in any more context than with a screenshot!
And a further confirmation of her comments to The Punch! By her!
Stop trying to distract from the main issue here: that the AVN are a morality-free group of people who will stop at nothing to advance their campaign of fear and lies about vaccination.
It’s truly terrifying.
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This is a disingenuous response. Read the rest of MD’s comment:
“SIDS is a ridiculous diagnosis. It’s a garbage can diagnosis”. Tell that to the dedicated researchers, paediatricians and NICU doctors and nurses who battle to improve the health of our babies.
“Their baby died for the greater good and perhaps the five babies in WA also did” – this person is implying that these babies were “sacrificed” on the altar of vaccination – what poisonous nonsense.
“Our kids are chattel to the government and the medical community…” – what a bizarre allegation.
Whether “MD” advised people to ask grieving parents about immunisation status is one issue, but the rest of her post is pure paranoid venom. Are you really defending this person?
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As Meryl Doreys rabid lapdog, I have a feeling that Hempel will defend *everything* that Dorey does, no matter how heinous (as evidenced here in the comment above).
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But, you choose to ignore the story of how her contact in perth’s child screamed for 5 days and the doctors kept ignoring it.
How convenient of you.
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There is no evidence that ever happened. Only anecdote.
Anti vaxers, you need to learn the clear distinction between evidence and story telling.
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Yep. because the doctors ignored thes eparents and gathering by how the media choose only pro vaccine stories, its highly unlikely you would have.
Ok. On a rare occasion they will print the truth.
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And as an anti vaxer does – goes and tries to make it all an evil conspiracy to cover the truth.
*facepalm*.
The most simple answer is that because there is no evidence, that it is most likely a story, a lie.
Kapeesh?
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And there you have it- The hate camapingers arguemnt in a nutshell- Those who questions the most powerful industry on teh planet must be a lier.
Ok, better still- Those who question what they believe in is a lier and a conspiracy theorist. lol….
Mate: A true skeptic will keep asking questions.
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I know for a fact that Meryl and her fellow AVN members have indeed contacted parents whose babies have died.
They are a disgraceful lot.
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How?
Is this another lie?
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I agree- doesn’t help to take her words and twist them.
I think they AVN network is not worth mentioning. I have only ever heard of them via negative media.
a positive based- Why vaccine is good without involving the AVN might be more effective in promoting vaccination.
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No words have been twisted. Where are you people getting this from?
The screen shot of the comment is right there for all to see.
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I took it to mean she could ask her friend- not ring up strangers.
I still think she is bonkers mind you.
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Yeah, she isn’t only suggesting that she contact her friend. The implication there is that she contact ALL of the families involved.
Even if it was friends of a friend, it is still beyond the pale to demand that they provide evidence that they had been vaccinated, in order for them to try and fit that puzzle piece into a non existent puzzle.
And yeah, is is completely out of her mind bonkers
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Liz,
Let me repeat what Meryl said: “The ONLY thing you can do is try and contact the FAMILIES involved to find out if the children were vaccinated before their death.”
Please note: she says families – not her friend. She says it’s the only thing she can do. She tells her to inquire about their vaccination status, and not offer condolences. Enough of the lying to yourself and others – this is what Meryl said.
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Liz, the term clutching at straws comes to mind.
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The “context” of the suggestion to contact grieving families is less relevant than the point of such action. What’s to be gained by asking a family one question about one thing that may or may not have occurred prior to their personal tragedy?
Did your baby ride in a car, before she died?
Did your baby come into contact with cotton, before she died?
Did breast feed your baby… before she died?
Have you ever eaten wholemeal toast, before your baby died?
Does either parent’s name have a “J” or “M” in it?
Other than the preconceived notion that vaccines are evil, how is any of these pointless questions any different to “did you vaccinate her before she died?” Meryl never did explain what was to be done with the “data” gained from the question but I think those who’ve followed the AVN’s conspiracy mongering for any time can guess as to the conclusion of the “research” if any of the responses were “yes”.
And with 90% of the population vaccinating, the odds of a “yes” in most parts of Australia is pretty high. Safer bet than Lotto, that’s for sure.
So, let’s try another experiment. Go to a family whose children are healthy and doing well at school and ask them if they were vaccinated. If most parents say “yes”, then this surely proves vaccines are amazing, doesn’t it, since correlation equals causation in anti-vax world?
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This quote is from a Doctor and professor
“A single vaccine given to a six-pound newborn is the equivalent of giving a 180-pound adult 30 vaccinations on the same day. Include in this the toxic effects of high levels of aluminum and formaldehyde contained in some vaccines, and the synergist toxicity could be increased to unknown levels. Further, it is very well known that infants do not produce significant levels of bile or have adult renal capacity for several months after birth. Bilary transport is the major biochemical route by which mercury is removed from the body, and infants cannot do this very well. They also do not possess the renal (kidney) capacity to remove aluminum. Additionally, mercury is a well-known inhibitor of kidney function.”–Boyd Haley Ph.D.
I guess, not all people who are anti vaxx are uneducated. Why is it that some highly educated doctors who invesitigate risk their entire careers and lives question vaccines?
Make me wonder.
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In the interests of a balanced debate why don’t you check what the Aus govt has to say about mercury in vaccines:
http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/161A07AA9F13BE32CA25719D001833FC/$File/uci-myths-guideprov-thiomersal.pdf
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So anonymous, what possible motivation would every government in the world have for trying to – according to you – deliberately poison their population?
Oh wait – it’s a conspiracy! The governments are all being paid by the big pharmaceutical companies!
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Governments are run by people who have little knowledge of vaccines, just like you and I.
I a, just saying, that why do we have a small number of highly educated professors and scientist who provide a whole different side to anyone else?
Why would they risk their lives like that?
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A *small* number is right – the scientists & medical professionals who disagree with them are *a much larger* number. Why do you think that is?
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Mate, a small number of woman over 50 years ago decided to fight for our rights. We still fighting.
A small number means alot to me.
Thanks…
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Strawman argument. They are simply wrong, and like you are not amenable to understanding the real science. All you can do is fall back on conspiracy theories when science shows you are wrong.
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Miss Kelly, can you please alude me to any conspiracy theories I have refered to?
Oh thats right? NONE.
I am simply sayingg that the majority once siad, woman could not vote, That black people could not get on the bus with us, that tabacco was ok, that thamidahide was imply fine too.
I just do not think this arguement is so balck and white.
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Referring to people *risking their lives to tell the truth about vaccines* sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory. Do you forget what you have previously written?
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Yet you seem to feel that you know more than the actual experts (immunologists, virologists, vaccinologists, GPs and biochemists)?
Massive hubris on your part.
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Interesting.
There is still a percentage of them choosing to risk their careers to disclose the other side.
Oh, but wait, they are insane.
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Hoe does a small number of people completely invalidate the massive body of evidence and science stacked against them?
Simple – it doesn’t.
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But didnt the masses agree with Thamidahide
?
Didnt the masses agree that tabacoo was actually not harmful?
Oh, didnt the masses agree that woman were not allowed to vote?
Sorry, Scotty, that line of arguement only works for you know “sheep” baaaaa
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It’s spelled thalidomide anony……I mean Meryl
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iAmandaroseI know a few people on the drug advisory committee thingy that decides which drugs should be on the PBS.
they are good decent people who are passionate about there work who would not suggests vaccines or drugs that did now benefit the community.
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He is not a doctor of medicine. He has a doctorate in chemistry. His arguements have been debunked over at the “Respectful Insolence” website – written by a medical doctor and PhD holder in medical research.
Makes me wonder
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Oh for goodness sake!!!! He is not a medical doctor, just a chemistry doctor???
So, are you suggesting that anyone with that calibre of education cannot understand the science???
Oh wait, Dr Healey who is a medical Dr, and was the head of the national medical institute claimed that the autism studies purposely left out a small subset of the population in order to debunk the autism/vaccine link. She said they did this because they know there is a link!!!!!! Um, she is a medical doctor. Now, what would she know right?
Oh, thats right, the moment she deicded to speak publicly about vaccines meant that she suddendly was rendered, consitutionally incapable of rational critical thinking. And, in that moment of speaking out about vaccines, she officially became insane.!!!!! Oh, but funny enough, she was highly regarded by the entire medical institute before hand lol
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I find it hilarious that people such as you deride the scientific community, yet when you find someone that has an opinion that fits into your warped view of reality, you slaveringly pawn over it and distribute it far and wide – all without checking the validity of the opinion/study being represented.
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Scott. Thats right, i am sonehow mentally disturbed because I have a different opinion to yours right at this moment.
So does Dr Healy? and what about the rest that speak out against vaccines? Are they mentally disturbed too?
Oh, thats right, so are all the chiropractors, natural paths and any alternative health professional.
How about, we put them all into mental institutions, because heaven forbid, they practice something that does not fit your ideals and beliefs.
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Meryl, this must be you.
1. Hackneyed unscientific arguments…check
2.Looney conspiracy theories as a fallback…check.
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Did I say “mentally disturbed”? Nope, I didn’t.
Again. A small amount of doctors with no evidence to back their claims does not in any way invalidate the entire body of evidence that is stacked against them.
“Oh, thats right, so are all the chiropractors, natural paths and any alternative health professional.”
// Many are indeed a bit bonkers, that is why they are alternative practitioners. The rest are more than likely shucksters that (like Meryl Dorey) are only out to take advantage of gullible and vulnerable people. The vast majority of “alternative” medicine has absolutely no evidence base.
“How about, we put them all into mental institutions, because heaven forbid, they practice something that does not fit your ideals and beliefs.”
// If they are indeed mentally instable and need institutionalising, then yes. Otherwise, they are not exempt from criticism, just like anybody else.
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Please anony. Tell us who you really are.
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It does make a difference actually – I am a Psychologist – I have 8 years training in psychology at the undergrad and post grad level. I do not advise on Forensic Psychology – they are also psychologists but with 8 years training specifically in forensics – see the difference – we are both psychologists but I don’t pretend to have expertise outside of my field….
A PhD in chemistry does not have the specialisation in immuniology, medicine, medical research – get it – anyone – Bueller?
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Exactly.
Would you trust a plumber to wire your house?
A biologist to run the LHC?
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“Would you trust a plumber to wire your house? ”
Sure. They’re all tradespeople. An education is an education is an education.
In fact, I’d trust a plumber to perform neurosurgery if it wasn’t for the ridiculous call-out fees they charge.
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The world’s quickest google search reveals that this man with a PhD has been widely criticised by his peers.
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I should add ‘discredited by his peers’
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Um yeah, if you’re quoting someone who, when you google their name, comes up with a bunch of stuff DIScrediting them, you’re doing it wrong.
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Please try to find someone more credible than Boyd Haley. When someone can’t tell the difference between methyl- and ethyl- compounds (because the names rhyme) or thinks that the proportion of a molecule’s weight made up by individual atomic weights of constituent elements determines the compound’s chemical properties he can safely be ignored.
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He is a doctor of chemistry.
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Conrad Murray was a doctor. should we take that one unnamed doctors word over the loads of scientific evidence available??
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Boyd Haley is not a doctor he is a chemist. He is also considered to be fringe element believer. There may be a very few *highly educated* people who don’t understand vaccines, but thank god they are few.
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You mean to say, that dont agree with vaccines.
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No I mean don’t understand them. If they really understood the science behind them we would not be here.
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As far as I can tell, Boyd Haley is a chemist, not a medical doctor.
As far as his research acumen goes, he’s had a number of controversial findings that no one has been able to repeat in a lab.
Hardly a great source.
Here’s the wiki entry on him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyd_Haley
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Vaccines will always adversely affect a small number of people due to genetics and our different immune systems. This is also the reason some people are more affected by the common cold and flu than others. What you fail to mention is that babies have the most active immune systems and that is why they handle vaccines so well.
If you don’t want to vaccinate your children, that’s your choice. But you need to be aware that other children are affected by your choice. Children who are too young to be vaccinated (such as Dana McCaffrey) will die because you choose not to vaccinate.
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Hi, I just googled Boyd Haley. He is not a medical doctor. He is PhD and sounds like anti. Wikipedia says his research findings have not been reproduced. He has been discredited by medical doctors. There is no mercury in current vaccines in Australia.
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There is so much wrong with that false dichotomy one doesn’t know where to begin. Infant and child vaccines are specifically manufactured for the developing immune system.
What if we raise calories in this manner? They are eating as if morbidly obese. Or sound, temperature, sunlight – all manifestly devastating by the same non-logic. What if an adult began picking up things from the ground and sucking on them? What weight ratio do we apply in this case?
it’s an impressive gambit used to create an intuitive illusion, when the issue at hand is stimulating an immune response. So-called toxins are at such trace levels as to be of no concern.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/10/13/the-toxin-gambit-on-steroids-and-more/
I know there’s one child Hepatitis B vaccine brand that contains thimerosal but I’d suggest checking with a resource like the NCIRS or a government equivalent rather than digesting an alarmist proposition.
The reality is that immunisation strengthens an infants immune system and hokus pokus peddled by dissenting practitioners such as Haley is utterly void of the principles of immunology.
This is where phrases such as “I’ve done my research”, should quite rightly raise the hair on any health professionals neck.
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Could you please include the Dr’s name and the reference for this quote. It would give it more validity.
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Your quote is from a doctor whose work has been widely discredited by the medical profession. Please support this statement with more facts from a credible source.
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My 19 month old fully vaccinated son has whooping cough right now. He has had periods of apnea, had problems breastfeeding due to congestion and he coughs until he vomits. He may be one of the few that doesn’t seroconvert (I personally don’t with rubella). Every night I hold him in my arms while he tries to sleep. I listen to him struggle for air. His community have let him down because they haven’t vaccinated. But I thank God that he didn’t get it until his body could put up some kind of a fight. And he is getting better. I ache for the families who aren’t as lucky
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KC, my thoughts are with you and your little boy. I pray that he continues his recovery and is back to full health soon xo
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most children who get whooping cough are vaccinated – it is fact that the new vaccines contributed to the new strains we are now seeing. It is not as simple as you would like to believe.
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I think you mean “FACT”. You need capitals to make it true. Conspiracy 101.
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The attitude of – we can’t vaccinate against a current disease because we might have to develop a different vaccine later if the virus mutates – which is what all viruses do” amazes me.
It is the equivalent of saying let’s not save millions of lives now in case we have to do it all again in ten years time to save millions more
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Add to that the reality that things will mutate under any circumstances that support change and the point becomes largely redundant anyway. It’s called evolution in the natural world.
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I have seen so many comments recently in “mummy” type groups on facebook that are truly scary. A recurring theme is that people are confused, and scared, about the benefits of vaccinations. I simply do not understand this. Underpinning this seems to be a mistrust in the medical profession. Again, I simply don’t understand. People genuinely seem to think that a doctor or a scientist, with all of thier years of medical training, is sitting and plotting to harm children everywhere. And yes, I think the AVN has to take some responsibility for this type of thinking. I don’t know what the solution to it is: maybe more education from the government? A campaign to educatio about the benefits of vaccination? Even on a simple level, people say they are “anti-vaccination” without really considering *which* vaccines they are opposing. For instance, the introduction of the rotavirus vaccine has been extremely beneficial at preventing hospital admissions.
http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Abstract/2005/09000/Evaluation_of_Safety,_Immunogenicity_and_Efficacy.14.aspx
Why wouldn’t you want your child protected against this??
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Oops, sorry, that was me. Didn’t log in.
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I’ve noticed this as well. I follow a few breastfeeding groups and while all the stuff on breastfeeding is great, there is a surprising amount of anti vax crap and woo. I found it really disappointing.
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This is a general comment and isn’t related as such to what the AVC are getting up to…
What you need to consider is that we live in a “free” country which gives us a certain degree of freedom in our health choices. It is not compulsory to vaccinate our children. We have free choice in this matter, while that remains the same, there will always be people who chose not to vaccinate their children, as is their right.
I believe in vaccinating children, all my children are fully vaccinated. I do get annoyed at parents who choose not to vaccinate their children as I feel that they are not making a good choice when it comes to their own child’s health.
I don’t however feel that those non-vaccinating parents are responsible for my own children’s health.
One other option is for the Government to become “Big Brother” and to start taking away our individual freedoms in health care; do we really want to open that can of worms?
As I said I get annoyed, but I also get annoyed by other choices mothers make that affect the physical and emotional well being of their children. Non-Vaccination is just one element in my general list of annoyances, and on its own isn’t enough for me to get outraged about.
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“I don’t however feel that those non-vaccinating parents are responsible for my own children’s health.”
But their decision to not vaccinate their children may directly affect your child’s health and it certainly puts at risk the health of the entire community including vulnerable adults. If it were simply a case of making a choice that doesn’t affect anyone but them (for example breastfeeding until the kid was in high school) it wouldn’t matter.
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While our vaccination rate is still pretty good I think we can still give people the choice and herd immunity is still good( except whooping cough due to it being a bit crappier then other vaccinations).
I think the government can only step in if we have very low immunisation and diseases rampant.
despite the hysteria we are preetty lucky most people do the right thing and the chances of our babies dying is small.
I personally don’t feel threatened of frightened by my non vaccinating friends children.
We do have choices – Let’s just hope people keep making good ones like most people are now.
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“I don’t however feel that those non-vaccinating parents are responsible for my own children’s health.”
I understand the thinking to a degree but must ask if you feel a person who chooses to drink and drive is responsible for any adverse effects of his decision?
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Sorry to be off topic. Has anyone else noticed that the like buttons have disappeared off some posts, or off some pages of comments on some posts?
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Yep. I had them a few minutes ago on another article, but in general I haven’t seen the like button on posts for about 10 days (using Google Chrome). Not sure what the go is there, but maybe go to the contact page (http://www.mamamia.com.au/contact/) to let admin know?
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Thanks amyspeak, I will
Maggie I don’t log in, so not sure how that relates :/
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PS maggie – didn’t mean to sound narky and can’t edit!
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I notice that the like buttons disappear only after I log in.
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Yep, I can’t see like buttons anymore either. It’s been like that for over a week for me.
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They are coming in and out for me. Sometimes they are they, sometimes not. Weird.
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Hi everyone. There is no right or wrong answer to this. It’s simply what feels right to the parents. However, As far as medical fraternity & government policy is concerned, it’s all about statistical probabily. They know that there is a chance of adverse reactions, however their actuaries have worked out that there is a greater good which can be achieved by emphasizing what they consider to be the positives of vaccination over the risk of your child having a severe reaction – and risking the law suit. It’s all about money, pure & simple. As to the people who consider that doctors/government advice is pure truth, they should talk to a thalidomide victim. It’s that reality is too difficult, tell your doctor to wager 5 million on the jab. Any adverse reaction & you keep the money. Watch him back pedal. (sorry. I can’t abide people who don’t put their money where their mouth is).
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Hi Chris – so you are saying that every professional should guarantee absolutely everything they tell you for 5 million dollars – what do you do for a living – I want you to make me the same guarantee when I buy something – get a service off you!.
Public Health measures are about public health – no doctor or scientist has ever stated that there is a 100 per cent guarantee no child will ever have an adverse reaction.
For example the risk of “brain damage” from the MMR is 1 in one million. The risk of “brain damage” from measles is 1 in 10 000. You are taking a greater risk with a child’s health by not vaccinating. It is that simple.
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“For example the risk of “brain damage” from the MMR is 1 in one million. The risk of “brain damage” from measles is 1 in 10 000.”
That’s not comparing apples with apples. In order to get brain damage from measles, you’d need to contract it first. I don’t know what the odds are of contracting measles*, it may still work out much higher than one in a million, but it’s still skewing the stats to phrase it how you have.
*I know that these odds would be higher if no-one vaccinated, I’m not disputing that, but if people are going to attack one side for skewing stats and using half-truths, let’s keep it even.
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No half truths here- but maybe I am not explaining what I mean very well.
For every 10000 children that contract measles 1 will develop “brain damage”
For every 1 million children vaccinated one will develop an adverse reaction – “brain damage”
I am talking about two separate sub-populations. You are right that if there were no cases of measles then the risk of the vaccine adverse reaction is greater than the risk of the measles adverse rection but that is not yet the case with measles.
We don’t receive smallpox vaccines any more because the disease has been irradicaed in the wild and therefore the risk of an adverse reaction from the vaccine is greater than the risk of contracting smallpox. Hopefully one day we will no longer need to give measles vaccine for the same reason.
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Chris – “there is no right or wrong answer to this. It’s simply what feels right the parents.”
What bollocks.
Would you say the same about driving your car when you’re drunk? If that ‘feels right’?
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Drunk? Next ill be cavoting with Druids
hmmmm.
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Unfortunately Chris there are right and wrong answers. Or more specifically, informed and misinformed.
Of course there are risks with vaccinations. There are also risks with medicines like antibiotics, paracetamol, taking iron tablets, eating peanut butter, walking out the door in case of that proverbial bus. However, I would wager that the cost to public health should even 20% of the population contract measles, vs the small number of adverse events that do occur, would be dramatic and catastrophic.
No-one can give 100% guarantees in life. However, as a community, we need to protect our weakest. I am prepared to do that, are you?
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If I had a “like” button I would “like” this very much. Great comment.
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I also have no like button and agree completely.
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Word, oopsyboops, word.
(I have no like button either)
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Id likebut the like button has taken erly retirement
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I get that the majority of Mama Mia’s followers are pro immunisation. So am I. However in the interest of blanced journalism, I would LOVE MamaMia to conduct an interview from just one anti vaxer who was pro immunisation and then changed their belief. I am just interested to know their side more rather than this regular aggressive ranting from both sides. I’d be pleased if the interview questions were direct. I just want to see if an anti vaxer can back up their beliefs in a clear, pragmatic way and I can’t really see it from reading their posts. Everyone is entitled to free speech.
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I would be very interested to read this. Sometimes when trying to point out the benefits of vaccination the supporters become so passionate they lose reason just as much as the non vaccers. Screaming at people with a different opinion is not going to win them over.
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If there was a like button…
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I completely agree with you on this one! I think in any situation both sides have a right to be heard and I am genuinely interested in hearing them both. Sometimes debates such as this become so heated people become blinded by their opinions and don’t care about the thoughts of others. You see it a lot in social media and comment sections of websites and people do become quite aggressive. Seeing both sides of the story might help everyone understand each other a bit more!
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don’t hold your breath
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Great article. I have only recently discovered that two of my nephews have never been vaccinated. They had visited my newborn in hospital when she was less than 24 hours old. I find this extemely selfish and have been upset by it ever since I found out. For some reason it made me feel like the bad one – for not knowing and not protecting my child. And not only my own child, but the other newborns in the hospital that were only metres away. I haven’t known how to deal with this since I found out, as I find they are extremely defensive on the topic. I can’t believe that they think they know better than the scientific evidence readily available on the topic!! I just don’t understand it.
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Oi! What have you got against families who live in treehouses?
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I have vaccinated my 4 children. I also know 2 families with children who suffered a significant reaction to being vaccinated and experienced significant brain damage. I think there is merit in being able to discuss and know the risks on both sides of the equation with accurate (non-AVN) information and continuing to consider if we can do it better to protect our kids all round.
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“Significant Brain damage” is a one in a million response to vaccination. To help give accurate information can you please state the vaccine given and the actual diagnosed vaccine adverse reaction – leading to what diagnosis for the child. Thanks
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Why is it that EVERY time someone comments about someone they know having an alleged ‘catastrophic vaccine injury”, they always preface it by saying they believe in vaccination or that they vaccinate their own children?
I reckon this is in the AVN handbook of how to help spread lies and fear.
Win people’s trust by making yourself appear reasonable first before you slam them with false propaganda.
The ultimate Trojan Horse.
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Please supply the details of the vaccine in question and the actual diagnosis on the children involved.
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Yes agree Tricia. My 9mth old son stopped making any noises, babbling etc after having a vaccination when he wasn’t feeling well and then he had couple of days with a temperature and crying. The change I saw was significant and only in the past few years after reading what I’ve read have I connected it with his vaccination.
At 9 mths he was a happy burbling baby who looked right at you eg eye contact and loved and smiled at everyone. As he grew he still wasn’t speaking at 2 and a half and had no eye contact. He had very bad ADHD diagnosed at 8 and low impulse control and still isn’t on the same emotional level as others, prefers to be on his own, (shades of Aspergers?) but now at 23 has achieved academically despite ongoing problems with attention/distraction and anger issues. I have read so much about our immune systems and the history of vaccinations and how some were approved without trials in the first place etc etc etc. Some of the academic literature and history is unbelievable it makes you wonder if people are in denial.
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Anon, he may well have been babbling at 9 months, but don’t try to say he as vaccinated at that age, unless you were really behind the schedule.
Autism often doesn’t become obvious roughly 18 months anyway. If his ADHD was so bad you would likely have known about well before 8. Their behaviour is very hard to ignore.
I actually wonder if you are the one in denial.
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harsh comment but likely accurate- health professionals see this all the time working with children with disabilities. parents are grappling with a ‘reason’ for their child’s problems, and sometimes it’s just easier to place the blame on vaccination that on ‘shit happens’ or genetics or some grey area.
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Yes, probably did come across as harsher than intended.
Denial is, unfortunately, very common in parents whose child has a diagnosable condition such as ADHD or and ASD.
I cn say this too, as the mother of an ADHD child and health professional who was also in denial for a while about his condition.
I do not blame vaccination. He is one of 4 fully vaccinated children.
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Comment below was reply to your first comment. I was never in denial about anything and fully accepted how things had turned out. I only know what I know and saw with my own eyes. As you have an ADHD child too yes of course you would know what life was like etc…and at the beginning I was only interested in resources strategies etc and my child’s well being and not causes- this was not my priority at all.
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More than rude considering you have no idea what my life was like with a child who didn’t call me mummy or say anything till he was 3, was unable to follow directions etc, was emotionally absent and possibly contributed to the breakup of my marriage regardless of the cause. You think I’m making this up?
Anyway not sure why I’m replying but yes his immunisation was late because we’d moved interstate. By the way I am a Special Ed teacher with a 4 yr Bachelor of Education who had been to many conferences etc on autism/ADHD and was more than super aware of what was happening developmentally, physically and emotionally to my first child. I was concerned enough in that week of the sudden change that I took him to first the child health nurse and then the doctor who said he may have had a reaction and shouldn’t have had it when unwell etc.
Yes of course I suspected adhd at 18 months but too young to be verified etc. He was diagnosed at 2.5 in 89 (not with autism and never has been- back then only really obvious children were) with developmental delays, low muscle tone and tactile sensitivity, he had no sensory filters eg noises setting him off, overstimulation etc which had ALL started that week at 9 mths especially the noise thing. One week I could vacuum and then the next week he’d non stop scream as soon as it was turned on. You could dry him with a towel, massage etc before but then he hated being touched and had turned from a previously cuddly baby into an extremely sensitive one. At 5 they were not sure if he could go a normal kindergarten because no eye contact could not follow instructions etc. By 8 he was in severe meltdown unable to stay in the classroom, violent, low self esteem etc so we resorted to ADHD medication. You know I don’t really care NOW what happened and why, blaming this or that but I had suspicions back then in 88….but if I knew what I now know especially after nearly dying of cancer in 04 and only being alive now because I stopped believing in Western chemically based/ non nutritional/ non ortho molecular medicine- I probably would have done things differently. Not sure if you’re interested but in 2010 the largest outbreak of whooping cough in 50 years happened in California. 81 % of people who contracted it were vaccinated. A study in Clinical Infectious Diseases actually showed that vaccination was less effective in preventing whooping cough and that diseases were mutating.
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Part of the reason vaccines aren’t 100% effective against certain diseases is that there are more strains of any given virus/bacterium in general than vaccines.
Hepatitis has roughly 6 strains and only 2 are vaccinated against presently.
HPV vaccine only targets 2 strains.
The pneumococcal vaccine gives you a clue about how many strains it offers protection. (it has the number 7,13 or 23 after the title).
A colleague’s daughter got a strain of whooping cough recently that was found to be not one they vaccinate for.
Vaccines are continually researched and, I hope improved. The thought of an AIDS/HIV vaccine is very exciting and I hope a Hep C one is not too far off also.
I do know that some people get bad side effects from vaccination and wonder if some can trigger an already dormant tendency to some conditions (much like marijuana can trigger psychosis) and would love genuine scientific research on the same.
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Does anyone have access to a list of what boosters are due for adults and when? (and if the information is available, perhaps how much they cost?)
I think more publicity about this would be extremely helpful – so many adults don’t realise they NEED the boosters REGULARLY to contribute to the total herd immunity.
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Shaezy
Here’s one link to real information.
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/content/handbook-home
As with any medical question, your own doctor will be able to answer detailed questions about immunisations and costs. I was lucky to get my whooping cough booster for free last year, but that’s because I’m a teacher and come into contact with parents of young children every day (who doesn’t!, but that was the rationale my doctor used). I just paid the medicare fee for the appointment time so total less than $40.
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Thanks RetroPastiche!
It’s a shame they don’t run some kind of annual advertising about the schedule – I mean, who REALLY thinks to look it up or ask their doctor? Unless you are already thinking about it, it’s out of sight, out of mind. An advertising campaign like the Flu Shot or the Cervical Cancer shot might be really effective.
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Sorry, that was me…
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Didn’t know teachers got some[?] vaccines for free.
Asthmatics get the Flu jab for free (as I discovered this year) and I suspect Whooping cough jab too.
On a side note, if you don’t want whooping cough (and trust me you don’t) keep you vaccine up to date! You need to be given a booster every 2 years. If you contract Whooping cough you will also be immune for 2 years, but to gain that immunity you go through hell.
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Andrew, I honestly thought I’d have to pay for it!
During my consult where she asked why I was asking for the vaccination and I said I was in contact with parents who have young children she said that she would put me down in the same category as a parent or grandparent. I assume that because NSW has now discontinued the free grandparent program that I would have to pay if I was getting one now.
I would have been happy to pay then, and I’ll still be happy in 4.5 years when I go for my booster.
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While I am completely against the AVN, I don’t think vilifying all people who choose not to vaccinate is fair either.
When I was born the only vaccination I got was for the measles and I didn’t have any others until I was a teenager. If I was really sick, I stayed away from other kids and that was that (though if they were immunised it should have been OK anyway).
I’m proud of the way I was raised and the decisions my parents made, which were in no way based on any of the extreme views held by organisations like the AVN. Not everyone who chooses to forgo vaccinations is as misinformed or extreme in their views as the AVN, so please remember that before judging!
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The problem with the approach you describe “staying away from other kids when you were really sick” is that it doesn’t stop the spread of disease because most people are infectious before they are symptomatic.
It is also not just a case of staying away from other kids. My father has a lung condition and if he catches whooping cough it will most likely kill him.
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Hi,
I’m going to try and say this in the nicest way possible, this is a discussion, not an argument, but..
I got a ‘start’ when I read this line you wrote: (though if they were immunised it should have been OK anyway).
Look, this might have been a throw away line, and maybe i AM taking it the wrong way… but it sounds like you are relying on herd immunity. So it’s ok for you to forgo the vaccinations, because everyone else has had them anyway…
Just not really sure it’s fair to the community as a whole to think like that…
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Jess you’re right that was a throwaway line and probably one that I shouldn’t have included because it’s not the point I was trying to make. Sorry if it seemed like I was saying I didn’t need vaccines because everyone else had them, that’s not at all what I meant.
My main point is that not everyone who chooses not to immunise their babies are as extreme as the AVN. As mentioned, I did get vaccinated later, which is proof that people can change their views (a good thing). Hopefully others who are opposed to vaccination will change their views as well (note: I AM pro-vaccination so please enough with judgement/comments that seem to imply I’m not).
Also, LJ re getting vaccinated as a teen: there was more information on the benefits of vaccines and more resources in my community.
Since more research has been done on the benefits of vaccination, more people (should, I hope) be open and willing to get their children immunised.
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Thanks so much for clarifying.
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Amyspeak – I do not think most people who have contributed to this discussion view all people who elect not to vaccinate are advocates of the AVN. Just reflecting on your comments. You said when you were sick you stayed away from others. Great! You also said you did get vaccinated as a teenager. Why? You also made the statement that if you did come into contact with other people if they were vaccinated it would be ok……
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I am a patient/consumer advocate and I am all about people making informed decisions about their health (or the health of their children). Where this breaks down is when the information we seek to help us make these informed decisions is filled with lies. And when the lies are coming from a group with an official-sounding name (such as the AVN) it makes it difficult for people to separate the lies from the truth.
The AVN’s information is built on lies, hysteria and scare-tactics. Not science. It preys on parents when they are their most vulnerable and trying to navigate this thing called parenthood. Their tactics are cruel and deceitful. And they should be stopped. #StopAVN
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As a medical scientist, I am most certainly PRO vaccination. I must point out, however, that Bordatella pertussis, the bacterium responsible for Whooping cough can be treated and cured with a strong course of antibiotics.
That is, provided the patient is strong and not immunocomprimised in any way. This includes individuals who are elderly, have cancer, AIDS and of course, babies.
Great article. More needs to be done to undo the painful misinformation that is being spread by Dorey and her minions.
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Actually the antibiotics don’t cure it- just reduce the contagious phase from 3 weeks to one. The disease just goes on and on for around 100 days. It is not fun- I had it a few years back and I am vaccinated. It isn’t dangerous in adults but the cracked ribs from coughing are a bitch.
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Alicia – if you really were a medical scientist you would know that antibiotics are not able to ‘treat or cure’ pertussis/whooping cough.
They are only able to help limit the spread of the infection AFTER an individual has caught it. By which time it is too late for them and they would have unknowingly infected others.
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Actually, I really am a medical scientist. Why would I lie about my profession?
I apologies for my misuse of the word ‘cure’ in my post, but I will stand by my use of the word ‘treat’.
Antibiotics are commonly used to treat the severity and duration of the illness if administered in the first stage, which generally lasts 10 days. I would know, I had a course a couple of months ago after becoming infected despite being vaccinated as a child.
This is beside the point though. The point is, the AVN network are misinforming people who don’t know any better and as a result, rates of infection are going through the roof.
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Um, if you’re clued in on the treatment and a medical scientist, wouldn’t you (a) have known that pertussis has been classed as epidemic for a good couple of years; and (b) that you need to have boosters to maintain immunity?
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The bacteria produces a toxin which damages the lungs. Once infected, antibiotics will kill the bacteria, but the toxin has done it’s damage.
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1 in 200 babies who get whooping cough die. They get antibiotics, ventilation, and are given every life saving intervention we can possibly throw at them in intensive care, and they still die.
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I have a new name suggestion. The Australian Misinformed and Ignorant Network. (AMIN)
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Contact grieving parents to ask invasive questions?
Meryl Dorey you are a disgusting excuse for a human being.
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Where did baby Dana live? I’d like to know where vaccination rates are lowest. Byron Bay?
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Alana, useful maps and other great information available from this site:
http://www.ncirs.edu.au/immunisation/coverage/maps/index.php
The NCIRS (National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance) is a brilliant resource for people. Lots of great stats and links to real research.
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Proportion of official conscientious objectors to immunisation, Australia, 2008 (cohort born Jan 2001 – Dec 2007)
AKA the hippy map.
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OOOOooooo.. stereotype much?
Actually it was Lennox Head, which is about 20 mins from Byron Bay..
:S
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Nimbin and Melany in Queensland are notorious for non vaccinators .
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Lennox Head, close to where I live. When I had my little boy 18 months ago there was whooping cough/vacc’n posters everywhere. I wouldn’t be surprised if the vacc’n numbers are increasing since the tragic loss of Dana.
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One thing I don’t understand is, I’m not allowed to board my dog or cat in a kennel or cattery when I go in holidays unless my animal is fully vaccinated and I provide proof by way of vaccination certificates to the boarder before leaving my animal with them, so why can’t it be the same for childcares and schools? Yes, I know children aren’t animals but why should people who choose to vaccinate have their babies suffer the same fate as baby Dana because of those who don’t vaccinate?
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…I thought that was already the rules at a lot of places…?
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I would have assumed so too but reading comments from further down says this isn’t the case. Just to be clear, I totally understand not all parents can vaccinate their babies due to autoimmune diseases and cancer etc.
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Unfortunately not. Here at least you provide a letter acknowledging that you have chosen not to vaccinate and that you understand the risks of your choice. I think (but am not sure as I can’t find a written reference) that it needs to be signed by your GP/paed.
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I agree! We had to provide vaccination certificates for our childcare centre. I thought childcare centres and schools had it as a requirement that the children be up to date with vaccinations? Or is it just some schools?
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No school or childcare centre can discriminate against children who haven’t been immunised. Your centre would be requesting the documents for record keeping purposes – so that in the case of an infectious disease breaking out they can easily provide the department of health with the required information, amongst other reasons. They can’t legally not allow an enrolment because a child is unimmnised. Not at this point in time anyway.
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if you dont want ur kids being in a care facility that allows unvaccinated children then ask if everyone is vaccinated and if they are not and you are able to dont use that care centre…. when i put my son into care i made sure it was a facility that did not allow unvaccinated children… if you use only vaccinated facilities you are sending the message that not vaccinating is not acceptable
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Or you’re sending the message that it’s cool and they’ll have more space and their own centres!
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Readers in western NSW may not be aware that the AVN is currently organising a series of ‘public lectures’ in a number of rural towns. Meryl Dorey and her friend Greg Beattie are going to be speaking in the following towns: Armidale, Tamworth, Inverell, Moree, Gunnedah, Dubbo, Parkes, Bathurst and Goulburn.
A blogger has designed some posters and information which can be printed out to inform people in these towns about the true agenda of the Anti-Vaccination Network. The link is here:
http://reasonablehank.com/2012/07/24/warning-to-the-community-regarding-anti-vaccination-seminars/
Please note, the blogger has requested that anyone seeking to place the flyers in suitable places ask for permission to do so from the premises owners. It is important for those of us who abhor the actions of Meryl Dorey and her followers to behave better in every situation.
#stopavn (love this hashtag!)
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LIKE x 10000!
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Thanks RetroPastiche, I had no idea they were on their way out here to misinform people out here.
Western NSW mostly has a pretty good vaccination rate, as there aren’t as many hippies and (most) people I know vaccinate their children. There isn’t the misinformation floating around out here so much. Plenty of Govt info, and Community Health is very supportive of parents out here too.
I suppose Meryl and her cronies saw a gap in the market for her rubbish as we have the high vacciantion rate.
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I normally post as myself but for my own safety I am not this time.
I am pro-vaccination, my wife is pro-active anti-vaccination.
We have 2 kids. Both are not immunised.
Mothers always pull rank on all decisions when it comes to babies and then throughout their childhood.
Check the recent comments posted about whether fathers should have a say about breast feeding.
“I don’t care what my husband says…” is a common phrase.
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Well I would ask then, if your wife let your child ride on the bonnet of the car instead of inside it with a seatbelt would you let her???
My fear is this. If we abuse the choice to vaccinate or not, those abusing the choice or misinterpreting ‘Chinese whisper’ style information will reduce the heard immunity to less than 90%. Once herd immunity drops below 90% we have a real risk for public health, not to mention the financial implications to industry and household. When this happens, when we start seeing economical demise from preventable illness, we will see mandatory immunisations in order to part of things we take for granted, ie. school, air flights, public gatherings. We need to keep our privilege of choice for those who need it (ie. allergy issues), and not let misinformation and scare tactics ruin our freedom of health consumerism.
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Karla,
Letting the kid ride on the bonnet is really a dad thing, don’t you think?
I think we’ll leave the childish arguments out of this one as I am sure you know the answer to your obviously, (one would hope) rhetorical question.
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Wow. What if your wife was of a certain religion that forbade life saving blood transfusions?
Would you let her call the shots then if your child needed such treatment?
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In cases like that, the doctors will get a court order to save the child’s life. Husband wouldn’t need to make that call.
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I’ve heard that there is often a way to give temporary guardianship so social workers/doctors can sign off on blood transfusions without it ‘coming from’ the parents, saving them from making that decision?
I could have mixed this up, though
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I say this as a proactive Atheist;
The overtly religious, and those who practice their beliefs with conviction are normally found within tight social groups and tend to marry those with the same convictions and beliefs. When you hear on the news about those cases around the world (and I can think of a recent on in New Zealand) where the parents turn away from modern medicine, it is both parents doing so.
It is not for religious reasons that my wife is anti-vaccination so we need to take that out of the equation.
What you need to understand is, within any relationship, you can not agree 100% on everything. During our “courting” stages I never thought to ask “are you for or against vaccination.” Truth be told, I just wanted to do the thing that makes babies, not actually have any yet.
So it comes down to this; who is it that has the greater conviction in the thing that they believe or do not believe in? The one with the greater conviction has to win out.
If I was married to someone else, someone who didn’t think about vaccination the way my wife does, we would have said “here, take my baby and jab it for all it’s worth” and the baby would be vaccinated.
But, in our case, my wife who tells me she is well researched on the whole debate (well if truth be told, she leans more towards the research done by the AVN and those who preceded that group) and so I have to support her choice.
It is a case of herd mentality if we just let the doctors do what they want, it is a case of free (and I would always hope) informed choice doing what she has chosen to do with our kids.
We have the world’s largest (record pending with Guinness World Records) stock pile of vitamins and supplements for our kids and encourage them to eat healthy. My wife made their baby food and we sourced as much organic pre-made foods as back ups when needed.
Again, I have to support her in this as her conviction is stronger than mine as this was not an issue that I have on my bucket list of ways that I am going to change the world.
I support Mia’s effort as she believes in this strongly and I don’t think that saying so undermines my wife’s thoughts on the subject. I have told my wife that I am pro-vaccination and if our kids ever get anything that we could have prevented through vaccination, I will be very angry with her.
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I understand some things you can’t compromise on. Life is like that
Your wife compromised on her beliefs for natural though when labour hurt her too much and had a Caesarian when she was afraid for her baby.
Yet she is good (and you’re clearly ok) with putting her children at risk of disease.
All the organic food and vitamins in the world can’t prevent disease transmission. It will put you in a better condition to fight the diseases, but you can still get them.
For someone pro vaccination to say you would be angry with your wife if your kids caught a vaccine preventable disease seems a bit…..underwhelming.
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My partner has a strong conviction. He is an athiest and is against having our children christened. I probably would have christened them but chose not to as his conviction is stronger than mine. This decision does not affect their health and wellbeing. He has another strong conviction. That swimming lessons are a waste of money. My conviction on this is not overly strong BUT not doing all we can to teach our kids to swim when we have a pool in our backyard could affect their health and wellbeing. So, our children had swimming lessons.
I think it is a cop out to say that her conviction is greater than yours and therefore she wins. Or that as the mum she gets to pull rank and make the final decision. Do your own research. Stop the AVN has a wealth of information to counter any argument offered by the AVN. If you can’t make her see that she is wrong, take the kids to the dr yourself!
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You can’t get angry at your wife if your kids get sick, it takes two!!!
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Further, we spent a shit load of money during the pregnancy to do healthy but natural things to aid in the development of the child whilst gladly using the support and advice of her obstetrician and other professionals in the hospital.
She really wanted to have a natural birth and we even did these (what I called stupid) classes to learn how to do breathing and relaxation techniques; you may have heard of it, Hypnobirthing.
Part of my role was to make sure that she didn’t go down the path of needing drugs to cope with the birth; the pain was too great so she gave in to them.
My other role was making sure the doctor didn’t talk us into a Caesarean section unnecessarily. When it came to the crunch, we were forced to have an emergency one or possibly harm the child. He was born blue due to complications during the birth but is now 3 and a half and a fit and healthy child.
Still not immunised, but fit and healthy all the same.
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There have been a number of cases before the Family Court in Australia, where parents who have split up have disagreed about vaccinating children. In each instance, the Court has decided in favour of the parent who wishes to vaccinate, as this course of action is clearly in the child’s best interests.
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And so the court should stand up for the wellbeing of the child.
Sad though isn’t it when the state has to step in because the parent decides to impose their beliefs on their child – to the detriment of their health.
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I’ll keep that in mind if we split.
I need an angle to beat the lawyers of the mother and get the judge on side.
As I am sure you’d be aware, fathers rarely have a valid argument to have better access to their kids, let alone ever getting sole custody.
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Then stand up and do the right thing. Get your kids vaccinated. Don’t let your wife put your children’s lives in danger any longer.
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We strap them in their car seats.
We hold their hands when crossing the road.
We lock our house at night.
We watch them carefully when playing at play centres, play grounds and at the park.
We make sure the baby is in a Australian Standard approved cot, sleeping in a SIDS approved sleeping bag, in a humidity and temperature controlled room.
And we kiss their boo-boos when they fall down.
Their lives aren’t in immediate danger.
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Anon this time, your argument that they aren’t in immediate danger is negated by the fact that you let your children play at play centres, play grounds and in the park. Exposure to carriers of disease is what puts them in danger.
Many illnesses are most contagious prior to becoming symptomatic. So your child is exposed to the illness before the carrier’s parents even know he’s sick.
Regarding the point you made about getting “very angry” with your wife if your children get sick from a preventable illness. I, too, found that statement to be a bit underwhelming.
If it were me, “very angry” would not begin to describe it. I’d also be furious at myself for not having stood up for my beliefs in vaccination when I had the chance.
But each to their own, I guess, I only hope that it never becomes an issue for you and your kids.
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I think it is wrong to assume that all parents who don’t vaccinate are supportive of the AVN. The AVN is just one group – they don’t speak for everyone.
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Okay so there are parents who don’t support the AVN and still don’t vaccinate their children – what are their arguments for not doing so?
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The arguments are none of your business
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Why not? Why aren’t they my business when a non vaccinated child could pass on something to my baby who is too young for vaccination, or my son who is allergic to vaccination, or my immunosuppressed daughter? If its a matter of choice, rather than necessity, why the hell isn’t it my business?
One of my children actually does fit one of the categories above, he is allergic to the MMR, and not too long ago we had a measles outbreak in the town we live in. I was so angry to hear other mothers just a few days after the case was confirmed blithely discussing not only the fact that they hadn’t immunised their kids, but also passing on information about how to do so and still collect the immunisation payments!
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“The arguments are none of your business.”
Poppycock!
Voluntary non-vaccination without medical cause is a community issue, not jus a parental one. A common theme in this debate is that pro-vaxxers care about everyone’s children, whereas antivaxxers only care about their own.
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How does Meryl Dorey explain that SIDS is at it’s lowest rate and yet our vaccination schedule is more jam-packed than ever?
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I am going to be very blunt here. I personally would like all pre-schools, child care centres and primary schools to ban children from attending unless they are vaccinated. These children co-exist in close proximity where transferral of diseases has a high incidence. We all know this from illnesses such as the common cold and gastro! As a parent YOU owe a duty of care to the people around you and your family. To not vaccinate your child (or not get a booster yourself) and then expose other people’s children (particularly babies who are too young to be vaccinated) to a threat that simply should not exist is in my personal opinion is the ultimate act of selfishness!
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I get where you’re coming from, but I’m not sure denying a child an education because their parents are idiots is the right course of action. I think it would be better if immunisation was compulsory unless they have a bloody good reason.
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Children shouldn’t be denied an education. These hippies clearly don’t believe in science, so why would they believe in a traditional education? Makes you wonder!
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What is the legal requirement for vaccination in schools? I remember when we moved to America (in the 80′s, it could have changed now!) we had to be fully vaccinated before we could be enrolled in primary school. I’m really surprised that this isn’t the case in Australia – or is it?
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In theory I support this. It angers me so much that some kids are not immunised, BUT is it fair to blame the kids. Not educating them is punishing them and not their silly parents.
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Hi all. I totally agree my suggestion is not fair for the children. But if it takes this sort of action to stop parents from not vaccinating their children I am all for it. I know I had to supply my children’s kinder with their immunisation record, but was told that it is just for their file and the kinder could not insist a child be immunised.
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I agree. I don’t want my daughter getting ill because someone else chooses to be irresponsible and not vaccinate their children. and that Meryl woman is the devil. crazy loon.
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If you want to keep your little babies safe from the non vaxers then please reconsider where you take them in public before they get their full whooping cough injections at 6months. I am amazed at the mums getting all excited about taking their tiny little babies to places like bubs and mums movie cinemas. I just hear of those places and just think of all the germy kids there. Reconsider also how long you drag them out to shopping centres and expose them to the germs of strangers. Whooping cough is spread also by adults who have not had boosters in years.
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That’s right sunny daze, many adults (in fact nearly 90%) should be considered ‘unvaccinated’ for whooping cough! There is not nearly enough publicity about this immunisation, but it is easily available and cheap (I think about $30 plus the doctor fee). I’m a teacher and got mine for free because I’m around parents with young children and my doctor said she wouldn’t charge me for the shot. A sore arm for a few days and I’m doing my bit for herd immunity.
My daughter (age 12 in year 7) had her booster recently (along with the chicken pox, Hep B and Gardasil). As her dad’s new wife is expecting their third child in a month or so, I’m thrilled to be able to protect that family as well.
Adults! Get your boosters!
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Just organised mine!
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It is interesting that you say this. I was told by an Asian baker ( really sorry I can’t remember where she came from) that it was traditional to keep Mum and baby at home for the first two months of life. I wonder if immunity had something to do with this tradition. It is interesting what ancient cultures know about the operation of the human body.
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Agree. I was one of those parents who “cocooned” my child for 12 whole weeks. We got the WC vax at 6 weeks but I waited an extra 6 weeks before we took our baby out into the public. My husband my mum both got the boosters when i found out I was pregnant and then I got it a week after birth. Most people thought I was mad, but there was an outbreak at the time and I was scared shitless. I’d do anything for my son.
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When I got my dog as a teen, we couldn’t take her out of the backyard for a few months, until she had her vaccinations…
Seems like we are more careful with pets sometimes…
Althought probably wouldn’t have the baby out in the yard…
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What? Some parents don’t immunise their child? No… you must have got that wrong MM…
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I am all for getting your kids vaccinated. I have and I’m so glad I did, because for about 6 months, I was walking around with a fairly innocuous cough. Little did I know it was pertussis . I shudder to think of what might of happened if I hadn’t vaccinated my kids. My little girl was 18 months old when I contracted it. I believe there has to more awareness about adults getting booster shots too, I didn’t realise I needed to get a booster shot, and I wonder how many people are wandering around with pertussis , and don’t even know it. Needless to say, I went and got myself and my two older sons vaccinated again.
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Think our local G.P said it right whe. He suggested decline in immunisations show a decline in people’s sense of community.
Because it is about the greater good. The more people vaccinated the better protected our communities. Don’t do it for you but do it for your neighbours, your friends, your country. Sometimes I a community you put your fears aside in order to play your part in the bigger picture.
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I completely agree Amandarose.
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agree
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Sorry for the typos- on my phone in between clients. Whoops- I should turn the predictive text thing off.
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Agree with this 100%
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In 1988 the Japanese government began recommending that children not be vaccinated until age two. SIDS has returned to Japan since the government now recommends vaccinations be administered at three months.
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Can you please link to the studies that show this? These kinds of statements mean nothing without some kind of evidence.
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http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccine...
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That link didn’t work. Assuming you meant: http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccines.htm.
If you did, well there are actually no scientific studies referenced/linked on that page. There are a bunch of quotes, but if there are no peer-reviewed publications, so how can we judge whether the information is accurate or not, opinion or fact, or taken in or out of context?
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Please link your facts you goose
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Sara h, i think you will find the LACK of peer review measures are the ‘facts’ which quite simply detract from the validity of the ‘study’ you have referenced.
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SIDS never left Japan.
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Japan increased the age of vaccination in 1975 to age two after two babies died after the DTP vaccine (supposedly).
The number of SIDS claims to their vaccination compensation program declined to zero once the vaccination age was raised to 2 years – but that would logically have to happen, since SIDS is defined as occurring in children age 1 year or younger.
The antivax cherry-picked articles forget to add that the increase of vaccination to age two brought pertussis back.
When over forty babies died from pertussis in 1979, it was realized that vaccination was beneficial. You can read about it in
Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story:
http://ftp.fcs.uga.edu/cfd/cdl/docs/vaccines_exemptions.pdf
and
Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.
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In short, SIDS was still there but couldn’t be linked to vaccination any more.
To rational people this means vaccination wasn’t the cause of SIDS in the first place. To anti-vaxxers it still means vaccination causes SIDS.
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Gema,
Here’s an idea – you don’t get your medical or scientific information from a website called “Shirley’s Wellness Cafe”.
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100% what my response was going to be! oh my goodness…
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No you’re right I should get it from a website called mamamia
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I’ll take some curly fries and the cure for aids please. Thanks Shirley.
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I wish the Like button was working – I just burst out laughing at that!
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How about you get your advice from an actual doctor like the rest of us.
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“No you’re right I should get it from a website called mamamia”
No, you shouldn’t. Do you not get it at all? News outlets and websites that look like a mad dog’s breakfast (like Shirley’s) are not reliable sources of medical advice.
But if you feel like drinking your own urine, then Shirley’s your girl… http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/urine.htm
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Ha! Good call, Mia!
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Gema, you are sadly mistaken. The SIDS rate in Japan did not change when they took DTaP off the 12 month old and under schedule. The only thing that changed was pertussis rates went up.
Veira Scheibner, dear friend of Meryl Dorey & The Australian Vaccination Network started this little myth. In her book she writes that when Japan moved the vaccination age from under 12 months to 2 years the incidence of SIDS “virtually disappeared”. Stupidly though, she had sourced her figures from vaccination compensation cases in the 12 month old – 2 yo age group, and, in Japan SIDS is only diagnosed in infants under 12 months. Thus SIDS had not disappeared, because she was not even looking at the age group, where SIDS, by very definition, occurs. Stupid or deliberately deceptive? I think the latter.
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Great minds…!!
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…will be ignored by anti-vaxxrs.
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After a difficult birth my son had neo- natal seizures and was not able to have the pertussis part of the triple antigen vaccine.Every time there was an outbreak of whooping cough I had to consult with our doctor,sometimes taking him out of school and sports activites.This was over 20 years ago and I would hate to think how dangerous it has become now with so many unvaccinated children out there.
I also have a relative who contracted polio over 50 years ago and my mum would tell me how he had to be moved from the country and reside at the far west children’s home in Manly in an iron lung. He was only a very young child and terrified.He has been a paraplegic for the rest of his life. Did I want to risk this happening to my kids? No!!
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Firstly rip little Dana and thank you to her brave parents for sharing their most painful moments in the hope to help others, I’m not sure I could. Second feel free to do what you like with your children however please if you decide not to vaccinate then please also decide to provide your own schools and child care centers because I have decided to keep my child safe from preventable death! Your level of selfishness is beyond belief and due to dinner party rules I’ll refrain from going into your stupidity!
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In addition to sending non-vaccinated children to child care centres and schools, it frustrates me to no end that these parents are still eligible for the maternal immunisation allowance!! The payment is meant to encourage people to access vaccines, not rewarding these anti-vaxxers for being so reckless and selfish…
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Yes talk about hypercritical…we wont be sheep and vaxs but Ives us the money any way. I would have thought true conscientious objection would be to object the money as well!
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Vaccination is vital. It could of saved Dana. How do people like that even get followers?
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They are dangerous and ignorant. Why the hell would the entire medical profession around the entire world be conspiring to hurt our babies? They wouldn’t and they don’t. The only conspiracy here is to heal children and extend their lives. Gee, how evil of them…..
Meryl & her gang of fools truly believe the crap they spout – all based on dodgy “evidence” by one de-registered doctor – and they can’t go back on it now, how embarrassing for them….
Keep on them Mamamia, don’t stop til they do.
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