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Deborah Hutton AWW January Cover 380x481 6 things I’ve learned from Deborah Hutton posing on AWW in the nuddy

The AWW cover

So I made a bit of a mess of my original post on this last week. I would very much like to delete it because I wrote it in a hurry while on holidays and I didn’t properly articulate myself. AT ALL.

But this is the Interweb not a court of law so there’s no need to strike things from the record. I’m human. I sometimes have non-fully-formed thoughts. I sometimes change my mind. I’m happy to own that.

Anyway, this is not at all about me. The conversation has moved on since then and become a full-blown media story, clearly springboarded by the post and explosion of comments on Mamamia – your words are influential, people, remember that. When you make a noise and react strongly to something, mainstream media notice.

Like any issue that provokes a passionate response on a large scale, this has gone way beyond one woman and one magazine cover.

It’s tapped into some potent truths about how we feel about a bunch of things: magazines, Photoshop, aging, sexism and also our complex feelings about our own bodies.

deb hutton 6 things I’ve learned from Deborah Hutton posing on AWW in the nuddy

Deborah Hutton photographed (without her knowledge) yesterday. This image does not make me feel bad about myself. You?

That’s enough for a dozen posts right there and they are indeed issues we will continue to examine in a bunch of different ways in days and weeks and months to come. It’s what we do at Mamamia and the conversation is never finished.

Debate is good! Disagreeing is good! That, to me, is how feminism works. A bunch of smart people speaking their minds.
RESPECTFULLY.

That word is important.

In all this discussion over the past week about AWW, I’ve been disappointed and upset that a very small minority of people think it’s ok to attack Deborah Hutton personally.

Not on. Not here. No way.

I believe we can debate things without being rude or abusive. If you don’t believe that, bugger off. Deborah is a real person who is online reading what is being written.

Remember that before you leave a comment – here or anywhere else.

 

OK, so here are some of the truths I’ve taken from the past week:

1. ATTRACTIVE WOMEN MAKE SOME WOMEN FEEL BAD ABOUT THEMSELVES

This is baffling to me. And sad. I’ve always liked looking at images of attractive women. Frankly, I find pictures of women (and actual women) more interesting to look at than men and I’m clearly not alone in this since women are generally on the cover of men’s AND women’s magazines.

If I feel bad about the way I look, is that Charlize Theron’s fault? That’s a pretty disturbing line of thought. If I feel bad about what I’ve achieved in my career, is that Mark Zuckerberg’s fault for achieving so much more?

Is the key to female self esteem REALLY surrounding yourself with people less attractive than you? And by whose measure? And is the key to having a positive body image only seeing images of bodies that are ‘worse’ than yours?

I don’t think so. I think the key is diversity. I think the key is feeling like there is a wide spectrum of what is considered attractive and thus knowing that you probably fit in there somewhere. Of course it’s also crucial that women be celebrated for what they can do as well as how they look. VERY CRUCIAL THAT.

2. IMAGES OF BULLSHIT MAKE SOME WOMEN FEEL BAD ABOUT THEMSELVES

This, I understand. Because me too. Yes, yes, I know some people will always insist ‘well duh, you shouldn’t compare yourself to other women’ but it’s not as simple as that.

The very purpose of magazines and advertising is to  portray what is considered ‘desirable’ and I don’t just mean that in a sexual way.

Look, I can live with the fact that I am not Helena Christensen. But don’t you think it’s majorly messed up that even Helena Christensen (whenever she appears in print) is not Helena Christensen? That is what is making women angry. THAT is what we’ve had a gut full of.

3. MAGAZINE EDITORS BELIEVE HUMAN FEATURES WILL COST THEM SALES

This, I’ve always thought is rubbish. Still do. I mean, WTF. And yet it is the fundamental argument that underpins the entire issue of Photoshopping and fake images.

Editors talk about not being able to “risk” an unairbrushed image on a cover. They talk about the need to produce a “commercial product”.

This means they honestly believe we will all run shrieking in horror from the news stands at the sight of Deborah Hutton’s sun spots or Ricki Lee’s stretch marks (I have no idea if Ricki Lee does actually have stretch marks but we’d never know because they would ALWAYS be airbrushed out of a photo).

Come on, you either buy mags or you don’t (I mostly don’t for all the reasons detailed in this post). I get that there is glamour involved in magazines but surely having your hair and make-up professionally done, your clothes chosen for you and pinned so they’re just right, thousands of dollars worth of flattering lighting aimed in your direction and talented photographers who know how to capture your best angle is ENOUGH glamour?

Come on editors, give us some bloody credit. Either your readers want to buy your product or not. A few freckles or sunspots or stretch marks or lines or wrinkles or (gasp) a rounded tummy or thighs that TOUCH are not going to make people turn away from the newstands in horror.

In fact – are you listening? – what if they made us MORE likely to buy your magazine? What if a bit of reality along with the glamour is the KEY to increasing sales?

Well, there’s a revolutionary thought for 2012. Who’s going to be ‘brave’ enough to try it? Come on editors, sales are dire. What do you have to lose by swimming against the Photoshop tide?

4. WOMEN ARE JACK OF BEING LIED TO

Oh yes we are. We’re sick of looking at images of people who don’t exist. We’re sick of being told – by photographers and editors and advertisers – that even the most beautiful women in the world, women who are deemed attractive enough to sell millions of magazines and beauty products are themselves not good enough and in need of (often) drastic airbrushing.

Because the message is that if women like Deb Hutton and Miranda Kerr aren’t good enough? What does that directly imply about the rest of us?

And if no woman is good enough – if we ALL need ‘help’ from a computer, isn’t that pretty fucked up?

5. DECLARATION OF PHOTOSHOP IS BETTER THAN NOT

I’m sad to say that I don’t think Photoshop is going anywhere. I don’t mean to sound defeatist about it and I think we need to keep debating it and questioning it and criticising it and stamping our feet a lot. But no society has ever de-industrialised. Going backwards doesn’t happen. So what to do? You tell me. Voting with our wallets is one thing we can do. So is questioning ALL editors about how much retouching they do – on their covers and on the images inside. Every month.  So is demanding that the declaration of Photoshop be mandatory (you can read about that here). Surely that’s a start?

6. SOME WOMEN BELIEVE PHOTOSHOP IS A PERSONAL CHOICE, JUST LIKE HAVING BOTOX OR GETTING A BOOB JOB.

This to me has been a really interesting thing to consider. I’m not going to write much about it today because I’m not yet quite sure what I think about it. As a feminist, I’m all about choice. And yet……there is of course a bigger picture at play. What impact do the individual choices of individual women – influential women – have on the rest of us?

I can refuse to have my own photos airbrushed but do I have the right to demand you don’t airbrush yours?

I’d be interested to hear what you think about all of this…..all of it.

Comments

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274 Comments so far

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    Sarah Bloomfield

    if those two people photographed are suppose to be the same person I’d say a fair bit of photoshopping has been going on

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    Rachel

    Bloody well said! Also Hutton has a fantastic body, especially for 50, I’m 22 & dont have a body that good, it doesnt make me feel bad, it makes me think ‘Good on ya woman! More power to you’

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    Guest

    Can I just point out that images, and skin in particular have been airbrushed for nearly as long as photography has existed, a master printer could work wonders with a negative in the darkroom. Images have always been used to manipulate public opinion, they are less about ” truth” than perception.

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    AJS

    I’d be pleased if Deborah Hutton was honest about other aspects of her life, too… AWW readers are not all heterosexual, even if the content is heterocentric. If she doesn’t want to talk about her partner, that’s fine. She can choose not to talk about her personal life in interviews. If she wants to talk about her ‘partner’ and her home life, can she please just be honest as to the gender of her partner and not use male pronouns? She can be as private as she wants but choosing to lie instead…that’s a shame. It’s nice ‘out’ here.

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    Kat

    Responding to point number 1 – my issue with the AWW cover was not so much that I (as a 23 year old woman) felt inadequate in comparison. It’s not looking at gorgeous models that makes me feel bad about myself. It’s the fact that thin, tanned and heavily photoshopped models and actresses are the only kind of women represented on magazine covers and advertised as the beauty ‘ideal’. Doing another issue about loving your body? Put another model on the cover and claim that she hasn’t been airbrushed to show how brave and naturally gorgeous and happy she is. It’s the lack of diversity that frustrates me. So your first point is spot on. Just because a woman is not a model does not mean she isn’t beautiful. Women who are size 10 or 12 or 14 and so on and so on can be beautiful. Women with curly hair or pale skin can be beautiful. Women don’t have to pile on the makeup and wear certain kinds of clothes to be beautiful. But you wouldn’t know it from magazine covers. That’s why I find magazines focusing on body love and putting near-perfect women on the cover time and time again so insulting. If you’re going to do a body issue then at least show that women of all shapes and sizes and colours can love their body and be stunning.

    Nothing against Deborah – she looks great. But for me it’s a big ‘so what’ bordering on anger (not at Deborah but at AWW). We’ve seen it all before and once again the suggestion (whether intentional or not) is that incredible means being size 8, tanned, near-perfect and naked.

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    kazzydav

    I think it was bold of AWW to do such a thing but I suspect it’s working the way they had hoped: to be controversial & gain free publicity. However, I don’t think it’s morally right on such a magazine & I’m disappointed that AWW would succumb to such a ridiculous affront. How much further will they stoop for free publicity in the future when their sales are down.

    I am disappointed in Deborah Hutton for doing such a thing & I would have hoped that she would have known better not to. She seems an intelligent woman & I suspect that she would have given it great consideration regarding the risks of what messages it could send to our society.

    Yes, she has a great body & it’s admirable that she takes care of herself & she should be proud of herself but that’s her business, not ours. Therefore, I think she made a mistake to go ahead with it, but we all make mistakes.

    Mostly, shame on AWW. Find something different to gain sales. What happened to maturity in analysing your market audience?

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    mkb27

    I think Deborah Hutton is absolutely stunning. She always has been. And at 50 – wow! Most of us could only hope – I’m envious of that, but I certainly don’t hate her or any other woman who looks that way.

    I was one who was critical of her photoshopped cover. If it was any old cover and I found out it was photoshopped I probably wouldn’t be surprised or particularly bothered by it. And I guess that’s the difference here – it was the message that went with the cover.

    The public declaration was that she proud of her body, when she really wasn’t. Not totally. It was contradictory and it sent a really dire message about what it actually takes to be completely happy with who you are.

    If you are going to declare how proud you look, then be proud of it – warts and all. We all have blemishes, scars, dimples, wrinkles, etc. There’s nothing weird or icky or supernatural about it. Would it have been so terrible to just show us that? And if it was, then just do a “wow I’m hot” cover and leave it at that and we’ll all assume the airbrush has been out anyway – we probably wouldn’t even really judge that much because it’s just so ingrained with what we see now.

    Perhaps this is where I am going with this – we are so used to seeing these perfect, unreal pictures of women with unobtainable figures and stunning features (often thanks to some creative work), that when someone appears on a cover in all her natural glory, declaring “this is me”, then that’s what we expect to get. For once.

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    Jess

    I am still confused as to why women are up in arms about the whole nudity thing. I have thought about it a lot, and wonder if a lot of it has to do with my art school background. I don’t see any evidence of the male gaze in this photo, and it just looks like a lovely celebratory photo to me. Photoshopped or no.
    Forever confused.

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      mkb27

      I agree with you, Jess. The nudity is a complete non-issue.

      I’m peeved about the photoshopping, but the shot itself is very tastefully done.

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    Anonymous

    So a photo of a woman (taken without her permission) is okay by you, because it doesn’t make you feel bad?

    Maybe all women who make *you* feel insecure should just wear potato sacks and paper bags, or better yet, not exist.

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      Amelia

      Is that really all there is to it because that’d be fabblegrasting.

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    Magickster

    Is any ‘real’ cover really all that ‘real’? Only someone rather dim takes what is on the cover as real. The only think natural are trees…

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    AES

    I must say, when I read Mia’s first post praising the AWW cover I didn’t agree with her sentiments- not because of the Photoshopping (which I agree with many, is unfortunate, unnecessary and overall, less than optimal) – but because of the fact that there was a naked 50yo woman on the cover of a magazine.

    I admire Deborah for having the courage to strip off but despite her obviously being an attractive woman, I feel slightly freaked out and confronted by the image. Maybe it’s because my mum is a year younger than Deborah and is similarly youthful, slim and attractive and imagining her naked on the cover of a national magazine spins my head out!

    I don’t think that my head spinning is necessarily a good thing- I think it’s great that AWW is embracing woman of all ages on their covers (as well as Deborah Hutton I seem to recall that the PM Julia Gillard and Anna Bligh have both featured in the past couple of years too..? Clothed, I might add!) – but rather, I think my discomfort is a reflection on the images which my generation (that being, Y) has grown accustomed to and expects to receive from the media- particularly, glorified, youthful beauty. Seeing Jennifer Hawkins and Jessica Gomes posing nude for magazine covers certainly ruffles some feathers but doing so, personally, doesn’t disturb me on an aesthetic level..

    So, although it makes me feel uncomfortable and it’s imperfect, I think that AWW can be commended for (at least making an attempt at) embracing age and ageing rather than just envying youth. I think that the celebration of growing older is wonderfully positive.
    And hey, as a bonus, age is clearly no barrier to being stunning- so stunning that you don’t even need Photoshop in the first place.

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    Amandarose

    iAmandaroseI think Ms Hutton is very beautiful but I still didn’t like the cover. it made her skin look like that of a fifteen year old. I like that they wanted a 50 year old woman but I do not love the fakery feeling of the image. it is ok to have the skin of 50 year old if your 50. I can understand photo shop doing away with pimple of a cut or scratch. I don’t have a problem with a dress colour being changed but I hate the skin thing. 50 year old women do not have baby skin.

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    Nicki

    Bravo, Mia!

    Let’s hope the Media (and their bosses, the Advertisers) take this on board, and DO something about it.

    Edit: There’s another lesson to be learned, Mia. Leave work at work when you’re on holidays :)

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    Lolly

    I really don’t get the big deal with this whole story. To me, photoshopping is another ‘tool’, on a par with professional hair and makeup, supportive/suck me in underwear, studio lighting, good use of camera angle and body positioning. All of these things can and should be used to create a great image.

    Even a Big Mac gets styled and photoshopped for a Maccas print ad or billboard. The burger in the picture never looks like the one you unwrap in the restaurant. But I don’t think it really matters.

    Advertising is just that – it’s making things look as good as possible to sell something. Does it always reflect real life, nope. I’m smart enough and comfortable with myself to know the difference.

    And the amount of skin DH shows on the cover is akin to wearing a swimsuit. No offensive bits on show at all.

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    Guest

    The issue over the photoshopping of Deborah Hutton confuses me. Did they not admit they did not change her body shape? The only thing that was photoshopped was her skin cancer scars and some skin tone? This could have been done with foundation and concealer. So what’s the difference? Don’t we all conceal our flaws on a daily basis? I know I’ve got concealer all over the pimple on my chin right now, and I’m pretty sure my workplace is all the happier not to see that mess.

    As far as I can see, it was a storm in a teacup. We all think Deborah looks amazing, and that is a natural fact.

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      sutika

      I hear what you’re saying and I would agree 100% IFthe focus was “I am proud to look this great at 50″. She should be proud. But the focus was “I am imperfect and I am posing nude to share my flaws”. That is bound to make the average 50 year old feel that they are a monstor in comparison. Gorgeous women should feel free to go nude, just don’t pretend you are not in the 1% rather than the 99%.

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    natty

    I don’t think Deborah Hutton needs Photoshop at all. But this made me laugh: http://acurrentofair.blogspot.com

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    twomummies

    On Point number 5 Mia why don’t you put a disclaimer on the images you re-post from magazines that appear on this site?

    We should have a competition for the best disclaimer!

    Here’s my attempt:

    “Dear reader/viewer please be aware that we are almost 99.9% sure that the images that are reposted here on the Mamamia website have been digitally changed in order to provide you with an alternative reality. Enjoy them for what they are…fantasy. Love Mia and the Team”

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    twomummies

    Loved the cover, loved Deb’s attitude. Women’s mag’s are not reality they are fantasy. Deb should be applauded for adding a touch of reality.

    These sorts of mags are like the movies people…fanatsy, imagination and if you treat them like fiction you won’t get your knickers in such a knot. Teach your children, as I teach my own daughter, the reality of what these mags are, let them enjoy the fantasy within the pages but most importantly teach them to appreciate reality.

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    kateinlondon

    To me, as many others have commented below, the photoshopping issue was secondary to the whole nudity thing – why must we ‘celebrate’ womanhood with yet another woman getting their kit off?

    To (badly) paraphrase Caitlin Moran, if the men aren’t doing it then we’re being had.

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      twomummies

      Why must we all be ashamed of the naked female or male form? There are plenty of naked (tackle tastefully hidden) pictures of men in magazines, have you looked at men’s fitness/lifestyle mags lately?

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        kateinlondon

        I’m not in the least ashamed of the naked form, I really am not. And I think she is a stunning woman – more so in the natural shot.

        But I think many of us would agree that there has been a huge surge in the preoccupation placed by society on physical beauty, particularly for women and I think that having to ‘celebrate’ our women by women getting nude is becoming a consistent theme. Men getting their abs out on the cover of a health mag is one thing but would we expect Larry Emdur to get nude on a cover to celebrate being a man? (sorry, trying to think of decent male example, bit out of touch).

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          twomummies

          Yeah you did kinda struggle for a decent male example there LOL (apologies to Larry if you are reading this!).

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        Nicki

        There’s no shame in nudity, when it’s appropriate. I just think the use of female nudity in the media is becoming toxic – the unspoken messages nudity in the media is sending to men and women alike. Not to mention the kids. Honestly, if a nude person walked into a Coles or Woolies, they’d be arrested. So is it acceptable to see DH without her kit on at the checkouts (admittedly, you couldn’t see “everything”).

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      Nicki

      YES!!!!!!!

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    champagnesweetie

    I was thrilled to see Deborah Hutton on the cover – it’s as if the cloak of invisibility has been thrown off women of that demographic.
    What I was surprised to read were the nasty and vitriolic comments by mainly anonymous commentators. Look in your mirror, you people, own what you see.

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    Nicole

    DH looks amazing in both the AWW shot and the beach shot.  But what this stirred up in me goes beyond this, beyond photoshopping, beyond whether or not she should have posed nude.  

    Yes, it might be argued that articles such as this are striving to redefine beauty – to show that a woman can still be beautiful “even when” she is over 50 / not size 8 or below / has less than “perfect” skin.  Yet such articles send a similar message – that beauty (even if it has been “redefined”) is central to who we are as women.  

    What would make me buy magazines? Articles that celebrate diverse women (and not just diverse in terms of perceived “beauty”.)  Smart women. Courageous women. Entrepreneurial women. Compassionate women. Adventurous women. Environmentalists. Social innovators.  Community builders….Magazines that send the types of messages that I would want my young daughter to receive. 

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    Gill

    Well, I messed up my COMMENT on the last post, I said the AWW cover was insulting, I meant to say that I found the Women’s Day cover insulting.It is easy to make mistakes in this online world!

    I liked your follow up article, Mia, and I agree that it is the debate and discussion that is important here. Body Image is an important topic for me and it must be for others too, hence the massive response. I think Deborah Hutton looks beautiful, she IS beautiful but I would like to see a more varied representation of beauty in the media. I lived in Sth Korea for 12 months and I was shocked at the thriving plastic surgery industry over there. Many of the South Korean women wanted bigger noses and paler skin, while I tried to convince them that as a teen growing up in Australia, I felt a tan was the ticket to Beautiful – the majority of women I saw in magazines were olive skinned, tanned and tall. Not short, brown haired and pale skinned.

    I write this on the eve of my 34th birthday and right now, I feel beautiful. I don’t always feel beautiful and I am sure all other women, Deborah Hutton included, have up and down days! But, I’m hoping discussions like the one sparked by Mia’s original article can help re-define our ideas about what makes someone beautiful, that we can look at naked shots of Deborah Hutton and appreciate her beauty without feeling threatened, that we will come to see many different kinds of beauty across all forms of media. I think when it comes to body image, it is important to project more than one “perfect” mold. Maybe then Korean girls with small noses will feel beautiful and so will Australian girls with pale skin or bigger noses. If more of us can learn to embrace our own features, then perhaps “beautiful” will start to extend outside the box. Stopping the photoshopping would help. If one of the mainstream magazines would commit to doing away with photoshopping, I just might start buying magazines again!

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    skin deep

    My eleven year old was looking in the mirror today and asked me if she was getting wrinkles. ELEVEN!!!! This is what society’s obsession with beauty and marketing is doing. I have to figure out what I am doing to influence her negatively as well. I was horrified when she asked me this!

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      katherine anne

      I remember asking my mum if I was getting wrinkles when I was around 8-9 years old. It was after seeing some anti-wrinkle cream commercials on TV.
      I wasn’t actually concerned that I had wrinkles, I just wanted to seem more grown up and mature. I think I just wanted to impress my mum.

      My mum’s reaction was brilliant. She said: “Don’t talk to me about that until you’re 45″. And I’m now a happy, healthy 24-year-old with a very high self esteem. I love how I look (98% of the time anyway).

      Just laugh it off and explain that wrinkles are something silly that older people worry about.

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      Mia

      *shudder* my daughter said “my nozzle bites make me look fat!”
      WTF

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      anon

      my seven year old keeps looking in the mirror saying she doesnt like her face. she says she has a funny nose and looks weird. It breaks my heart seeing as nothing like this is ever said in our house. I dont know what to do about it.

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        Lu

        I remember putting vaseline under my eyes before bed in high school because I didnt want wrinkles! All it did was give me slimy eyes…

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          Travelling Mum

          I have photos of my sister & I lying around with cold tea bags & slices of cucumber on our eyes & egg white on as face masks, believing it would give us youthful skin! We were 15 & 12 at the time :)

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    elli

    “So is demanding that the declaration of Photoshop be mandatory (you can read about that here). Surely that’s a start?”

    No, it’s not even getting close to the starting line.

    I read this edition of the Womens Weekly today and came to some fashion pages I liked the look of. I wondered where it was shot so browsed the small print – although I didn’t find that information, I did find in teeny weeny fairy font vertically up the spine-side of the first page, “These photos have been retouched.” How much retouching was done? What did they fix? What does it really look like?

    If this is all a mandatory code would require, then they may as well not effing bother.

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    Girlfriday67

    Fair comments Mia, but dont make it sound as though DH is the innocent victim in all this – she agreed to the posing deal in the first place, she put herself out there. She had a choice about whether to be seen nude, unfortunately for those of us who shop anywhere that magazines are sold, we saw her image whether we wanted to or not. What we are talking about here is choice. She had a choice, we didnt. I think by now (hopefully) AWW and DH get that we dont want anymore nude cover shots. Its not what we want from pur AWW. I would have bought the mag if she’d been clothed.

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    I think the biggest thing you should have learnt (which does not appear to be on your list) Is that people don’t want to read hypocrital comments from writers! You are either for or against issues not “oh well I am really against photoshopping BUT it’s ok in this case because she’s my friend and she is such a nice person and they only did a little bit…..”.
    Your readers remember what you have written and don’t seem pleased when you go back on yourself to make exceptions.

    In my opinion this should be your no1 on the list!

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      Cait

      Please continue your accusations after making sure you have NEVER ever contradicted yourself in the history of the known universe. Then, and only then, is it ok to tell someone off for contradicting themselves.

      Just because Mia is a media personality doesnt make her any more infallible than the rest of society. Its entirely unreasonable to suggest she owes anyone anything more than what she has written.

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        Bittersweet

        Agreed. There aren’t many people in the world who could claim that they are never wrong or hypocritical!

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      Guest

      At last someone had the courage to say it! Sorry I didn’t. Good on you Mamamiafan.

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    Counterpoint

    Well I’m glad you posted that image next to the airbrushed one because wow, In one she looks like a Barbie doll and in the other she looks like, well, a fifty year old woman. A mighty fit fifty year old woman, but a fifty year old woman none the less.

    You say women are sick of being lied to. Damn right we are. Lied to by people like you, Mia Freeman.

    Who misled when you said you were against photoshopping, but turned out to really think it’s ok if it’s just a little bit.

    Who misled when you said the AWW cover was “minimally” touched up. Um, hello?

    Hell, when I suggested you take the post down – I think my words were “get rid of this stupid post” you replied that you were entirely happy with your words.

    It isn’t and never was about photoshopping. It was about the way you said one thing and did another.

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      Mia

      Counterpoint, I get it. You’ve made your point repeatedly and it has been heard.

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        KB001

        i support you mia. To have someone who is an involved an influential person within the media that is against photoshop is fantastic, and something that we really don’t see enough of. For everyone who feels so personally offended by seeing a slightly photoshopped image on this site (which from memory was a discussion/comparison about the different types of covers) perhaps you are focusing too much on the negative. Instead, be appreciative that not only do you have a strong woman who campaigns to stop photoshopping in the media but you are also able to be involved in that discussion (which is what this is all about) and get genuine feedback.You don’t get that everywhere, I for one am certainly not worried over whether mia is not passionate enough about this cause (i think she is!), and i am more than happy for her to express opinions about this, that and anything else. keep up the good work mammamia team!

        edit: in saying that, i find it interesting to read the differing opinions – just don’t get so narky!

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    MJ

    I think photo shopping is all or nothing. For me the issue is that she’s posing for an article about body love then faking her body via photoshopping.. so clearly she is a poor candidate for advocating ‘body love’ when she doesn’t even accept her own. As to how much of that is her doing and how much is the magazine, who knows. The fact that in reality she’s GORGEOUS makes it worse – her body is beautiful, how heart breaking is it that she, and we, are apparently programmed to believe that her natural body isn’t good enough. Like somehow she should be more perfect, younger, flawless, when in that photo of her at the beach she looks absolutely amazing.

    I think the bigger issue is that we’re tired of talking about our looks and our bodies and hating them and loving them as though it’s the most important thing. In the grand scheme of things, as long as you’re healthy and comfortable in your own skin the way you look means fuck all. Who you are and what can you do is what matters and what we should be talking about, but it’s just always always always about appearance. ‘Make women envy you and men want you because that’s your only value and function’ is the message that is shoved down our throats from birth to death.
    When is it going to be time to talk about something else? Best way to make a change is to be the change you want to see..
    I think at this point the only people who can change sexism and the way women are portrayed in every part of society are women themselves. There is far too much money to be made off of women’s insecurities for the change to come from any other source.
    We are our own solution, just like every other revolution or major social change in history.

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    Elle O'Connor

    Mia, you say that you don’t (or won’t) apply your anti photoshop agenda to this site in the form of images that appear or contributors images as you have no right to demand that.

    So what makes it okay for an editor to demand that their models/actresses/contributors etc. go sans-photoshop? If even YOU won’t impose the standard on this site that is YOURS, why should editors impose a photoshop ban on people appearing inside their mag, some with a vested interest in maintaining a polished public image?

    I don’t think it is as simple as editors just doing it! You certainly didn’t.

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      Mia

      Elle, I guess the difference is this: the editors DO the photoshopping of the images (or order it) because they produce the images. They have total control about whether to PS and how much. On MM we publish supplied images so we don’t have that control.
      However we are looking at how to make that process more transparent.

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        Elle O'Connor

        Then why don’t you ask for non-photoshopped images of your contributors??

        You are in a position to do something about it, saying it is out of your control seems like a bit of a cop out to be honest. Also, why didn’t you begin making a stand when you were working as an editor asking for photoshopping of images?

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        Elle O'Connor

        Also you have spoken several times about the fact that editors (esp in Aust) have to buy their images, some already photoshopped.

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    Yeah!

    I think magazines are doing a massive disservice to themselves with all this retouching. It’s one of the main reasons why I don’t buy magazines anymore.

    I have no interest in looking at celebrities and editorial images anymore because I know those people don’t really look like that – and I’d like to see what they really look like. I agree that professional make-up, styling, lighting and photography should be enough to make the genetically-gifted model or celebrity look good.

    I find it particularly annoying when they put a 40+ woman, such as Sarah Jessica Parker (whom I love), on the cover and retouch her to within an inch of her life; making her look like a 25 year-old alien. Honestly, it’s insulting – to SJP and to the reader. We KNOW she doesn’t look like that. We’ve seen her in her latest movies.

    With the whole AWW cover debacle kicking off 2012, I think we might see some un-retouched covers/images in major women’s magazines this year. Here’s hoping!

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    Dianne

    Have followed with interest Mia’s original post, the diverse response and rethink. Just don’t get it. Especially the heat generated in this forum.
    Deborah Hutton’s beautiful. Her choice to appear as she did, as has been her career pathway.
    Most of us 50+ers would never expect to grace the cover of any magazine, but are pretty chuffed that a perceived ‘oldie’ has done just that in such style.
    Wouldn’t worry too much about the young adults I work with not being aware of the strategies media, old and new, uses to persuade, advocate and sometimes dissemble. It’s the surrounding conversations guiding adults have with them that really matter long term.
    Hope 2012 brings on many more respectful discussions that value the widest possible spectrum of MM opinion and age.

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    Alizabeth

    As a regular reader of mm I have to say I’m really tired of this debate when this site regularly publishes images of celebs and even contributors of mm that are retouched or photoshopped. Mia, I enjoy your writing and this site but until mm decides to stand up for the views it says it supports and starts stating when any image is retouched and in some cases why it’s been retouched, it’s a void argument in my opinion. I personally don’t have an issue with it, I’m just suggesting that rather than rehashing the debate take the opportunity to make the changes mm would like to see elsewhere in the media. I’d also like to suggest a post on how to improve self esteem as based on some of the comments some positive and practical solutions around this could be well received.

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    Susan

    Nailed it, Mia…

    The inconsistencies, the irrational thinking, the hypocrisy.

    To be honest what surprises me most is that some people seem to believe everything they read or see… Surely if you take photography as the art form it is – Photoshopping isn’t lying. It’s just someone’s interpretation of an image. Without it we wouldn’t have Annie Leibowitz’s or Patrick Deumarchliers amazing images. T

    Just be a critical in the media that you consume and be savvy with your dollars.

    PS.
    I say go Deborah. She is a brainy, empowered woman who looks gorg… Why has this become like the Crucible??

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    Bittersweet

    Regarding issue number 6 above, as a general rule, no I don’t think anyone on the street can dictate that no one else can use photoshopped images of themselves – I respect that different people will have their own views on these matters.

    However Mia, as a publisher you are in a completely different position than the rest of us. You do have the right to demand that that people don’t use airbrushing in their photos that appear on this website, or at least that if they do, they will carry a declaration that they were photoshopped.

    As a publisher, you have the right to control what appears in your publication (in this case, on your website). As the publisher, you already exert control over the content of your website and you will censor comments that are considered to violate your policies. For example, if someone were to make highly homophobic or racist comments, those comments would probably be deleted, notwithstanding that the person making those comments may genuinely hold those views. Any degree of censoring involves making value judgements and, to some degree, imposing your ideological point of view on others. Why should photos be any different?

    I think a nice way of acheiving the middle ground on this is to carry a declaration on photoshopped images, rather than banning them altogether. It respects the right of individuals to portray themselves in a photoshopped manner, but still clearly identifies them as photoshopped.

    As as an aside, with the pic of Deb in her bikini the fact that I know it is real makes me look it and think that she should be damn proud of that body. However, with the photo taken with flattering lighting and photo shopping, I just don’t have the same response. I just don’t “trust” the magazine cover pic in the same way (if that makes sense).

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      Bittersweet

      Just wanted to add, I read what Deb wrote at the Daily Telegraph about the photo. She said something to the effect that she thought her sunspots were “unsightly” and that’s why they were photoshopped. I think it’s a shame that she feels that way.

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        Laws for Clouds

        I think it’s a real shame she publicly shared her battle with skin cancer, but can’t show the other affects of her sun worship. I know when I was younger and bulletproof that the idea of getting sun spots put me off a lot more than the risk of cancer.

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          Lulu

          Not only that, but it she looks tanned in the photographs. So it’s compulsory to look as if you sun-worship but bad to … er, look as if you sun worship. The irony bunny arrived early thsi year.

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    Lauren

    I don’t like the cover. At all. Why does she have to be naked?? This is a woman’s magazine. A men’s mag wouldn’t dare have a naked man on it, but that’s not the point. The cover is once again promoting competition against women. Saying look at me, look how Good i look for 50, never mind the airbrushing. I’m so tired of it. The argument is do women want this? I think the majority would prefer seeing Deborah with clothes. And Mia I see enough attractive gorgeous women. There are also average women in the world too- what I wouldn’t give just once to see a woman with a big nose, cellulite, “muffin tops”, anything! I know that will never happen but I just would love to relate for once instead of always aiming and striving and competing.

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      Renae

      Big nose, cellulite, muffin tops… Throw in some acne, very bad teeth, stretch marks (and I haven’t even had kids) and some bad proportions and I could be your girl :p
      I’m 25 (just) And I dont look anything like Deb Hutton….
      Frankly sometimes I think I look better naked than clothed because the clothes never fit right, lol.

      When you think of all the often dangerous things that people go through to look “beautiful” Photoshopping seems like the ordinary progression. They’re already surgerised, fake tanned, fake hair coloured, teeth bleached, dieted, and who knows what else. An older friend was telling me the other day about this prescription medication she got for her daughter’s acne… The side effects and dangers were mind boggling. what lengths will people go to to look “beautiful”…

      I’m not beautiful. I’m not even pretty – although with enough makeup I can get close. I hate having my photo taken, mostly because my attractive qualities are the dynamic things you lose in a frozen camera shot, my charm and spark of life.

      Even if the magazine models were not photoshopped, they still wouldnt look like me. They would still be an unattainable standard of beauty, because of all the other methods of making themselves beautiful that I refuse to subscribe to (I will not dye my hair, I will not fake tan, and lots of others.)
      If you are already fake, what is the problem with being even more fake?

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    Reannon

    I read something the other day that said ” I’m not beautiful like you. I’m beautiful like me.” and it hit home. I am trying so hard to accept my body as it is & I find buying mags fucks with my head space. I don’t need to be told how to loose weight, I know that I should eat right & exercise. I don’t want to see celebs love their curves one minute & drop kgs the next. I don’t want to see woman with flawless skin telling me to buy their skin care. I just dont want it in my life so I stopped buying. Simple as that.

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      Kate D

      This is so true! It’s kinda crazy to compare yourself to any celebrities at all! These people have been selected because of their appearance to be on magazine covers – it’s like watching Stosur play tennis, go out for a hit and berate yourself because you’re not at her standard. Models, ex-models, celebrities are very good looking people and have their image highlighted as such, this is what they are exemplary at. By all means, try to emulate, but don’t compare, it’s a fruitless battle.

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      Nicki

      There’s a song with that in the lyrics:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuOulA6A_rg

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    Bryter

    Thank-you for this post, Mia. You have created an important site for discussion of ideas and critical thought and should be immensely proud of yourself and your team. So we may not all agree and we may all regret some things we say or change our opinions and then change back again. I think that’s a good thing. I’m the first to admit that I am a contradictory, contrary Miss so-and-so, and I kick myself later for being too forthright, not forthright enough, too quick to comment, etc. But that’s life! It would be boring if we would were all so close-minded to be unable to listen, analyse, debate, reflect and evolve.

    I LOOOVE that your site has given a forum for intelligent, respectful conversation and sharing of experiences and thoughts. Reading other forums with open comments (for example The Daily Tele) makes me sad. So many of the comments are ill-informed and downright abusive. I don’t see how that achieves anything.

    I look forward to another year of great Mamamia debates and posts!!

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    Alizabeth

    This might be an unpopular opinion but as a regular reader of MM I’m really tired of this debate about photoshopping and how women are presented in mags, etc. I respect that there are differences of opinion on this issue but as an intelligent female consu
    Er I’m well aware that most images in print media, of women or otherwise, are digitally altered. I don’t think it’s a conspiracy against women, they’re selling a product and retouched images look more attractive. Judging by some of the comments and personal attacks on DH since the cover was published I think the next post should be on addressing low self esteem and providing practical ideas and support to do this rather than rehashing the sane debate around photoshopping and images of women in mags. I also find some of the images and content on this site contradict the stance against this. If MM really wants to make a statement, don’t run any retouched images of celebrities or otherwise without stating which ones are photoshopped.

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    Alizabeth

    This might be an unpopular opinion but as a regular reader of MM I’m really tired of this debate about photoshopping and how women are presented in mags, etc. I respect that there are differences of opinion on this issue but as an intelligent female consumer I’m well aware that most images in print media, of women or otherwise, are digitally altered. I don’t think it’s a conspiracy against women, they’re selling a product and retouched images look more attractive. Judging by some of the comments and personal attacks on DH since the cover was published I think the next post should be on addressing low self esteem and providing practical ideas and support to do this rather than rehashing the same debate around photoshopping and images of women in mags. I also find some of the images and content on this site contradict the stance against this. If MM really wants to make a statement, don’t run any retouched images of celebrities or otherwise without stating which ones are photoshopped.

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      Katie

      You must be quite emphatic about this you went to all the trouble of posting it twice ha ha

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        Alizabeth

        It would seem so! Stupid iPhone! ;)

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    Essie

    I don’t have much of an issue with photoshop, it’s the unecessary nudity that put me off. Call me weird, but I don’t like buying magazines with naked people on the cover. It makes me uncomfortable and it annoys me even more that mags may do it just to cause a shitstorm. Some people enjoy nudity but I think AWW has misjudged it’s audience – my mum and grandma would not buy the mag with a nude cover.
    I am with Mia that photoshop should be declared and my issue with the original post was the whole ‘photoshopped a little’ bit. As beautiful as DH is, nobody looks like that, and we all know it.
    I think the AWW as an established and respected mag should just step up and do a non-photoshopped cover, even just as an experiment. I think that maybe after this disappointing cover, they owe it to their readers.

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    Tara Smithson

    The good thing is with all this hoo-har over Deborah Hutton and photoshopping, it’s got everyone talking about how they feel about the topic. Maybe it’s a long way off before magazines cut back on the airbrushing, but at least this incident could be a catalyst for change down the track. it all starts with small steps.

    I love the Mamamia website and discussion board because people are very respectful of all opinions. I’ve always loved that sense of community here.

    I understand why people get fired up over photoshopping, because I think our society is just tired of being lied to or misinformed in so many ways. Personally attacking someone viciously because their values/opinions/ ideas are not the same as yours is a crying shame and generally doesn’t lead to any sort of progress on the subject matter.

    Do I believe that we have a right to know if people have been photoshopped? (i.e make it mandatory to release that info in mags) Only if they’re trying to sell me something (anti-aging creams, weight loss glop etc) because that’s misrepresentation, but otherwise, I just assume that most shots in any magazine are “tweaked”. I don’t feel the need to try and look like the people in the mags, because i know the bottom line is, it’s all just smoke and mirrors.

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    Kylie2

    Really interesting observations Mia. I missed the original post so haven’t seen any of the comments on it.

    I actually find both of these pictures of Deborah make me feel good rather than bad I’m sure that the reason she looks so good is because she works bloody hard at it. I bet she sacrifices a lot of other enjoyable things in life so that she can feel comfortable wearing that bikini.

    I’m 41 next week and I’m trying really hard to be healthy. I’ve been to the gym after work today, had chicken breast with salad for dinner and I’m sitting here drinking mineral water instead of the glass of wine I really feel like. I won’t be posing nude or wearing a bikini but I do want to feel comfortable in my own skin.

    Seeing a fit healthy 50 year old woman swimming at the beach is inspiring to me. Seeing a young woman who has had plastic surgery and been photoshopped posing in a bikini with her new baby makes me feel bad.

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    Jody

    Mia, Congratulations on Mamamia. You should be very proud of what you have created and I am amazed at the energy and committment you bring.

    When my daughter was growing up, I felt it was so important to teach her to not hate, envy or be bitter towards beautiful women. I also introduced her to all types of beauty in different cultures and she was amazed that in some countries, our idea of what beauty is contradicts the idea of what beauty is in other countries. This helped her gain a more honest perspective.
    Now, when I look at a photo in a magazine and comment that I wish I had perfect skin , my daughter says ‘Oh, mum – its photoshopped.’ The student becomes the teacher :)

    Naomi Wolf, a feminist who wrote the book – The Beauty Myth was attacked for being beautiful. By women. Go figure.

    I have a friend who was told be another female friend of hers, that she was too fat and that is why her boyfriend left her. A woman attacking another.

    As you say Mia. Photoshop may not being going anywhere fast. We have to find another way. We can start with our children.

    We can remember that every single time we see a photoshopped ad we can remind oursleves that we are being manipulated. It is after all about money. They just want our money.

    By the way, Deborah looks amazing in all the photos. It was blatantly obvious that she tried very hard to remain true to what she looks like in real life. I have friends in professional places that photoshop more for their website photos. Just saying!

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      Mia

      Jody, I couldn’t agree more with what you say. Media education for our kids – by us – is crucial. We have to reclaim some power by talking openly about what goes into creating an image.Love how your daughter is now your teacher. :)

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      katherine anne

      Totally agree about parents educating their kids about media.

      When I was around 11, I started to notice that the women in the magazines had really clear skin. All of them. I asked my mum why and she said this:
      “Those women have their faces covered with make up. Then they have lights shone around them that make any pimples look tiny. Then after that, the photo-man just gets rid pimples from the photo anyway. That photo is not what the person really looks like”. But they are beautiful pictures aren’t they.”

      Since that day, I understood media photos for what they are: beautiful pieces of art that 95% of the time have little bearing on reality. I love reading magazines and looking at fashion photos because I appreciate them as an art form and find them visually inspiring. Thank goodness for my mum!

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      Nicki

      Jody, those women who attack each other are the ones who have bought into The Beauty Myth. And I do think Naomi Wolf is a hottie…..so obviously I’ve bought into too, to some extent *sigh*. It’s virtually unavoidable not to, because we’ve all been saturated with the message.

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    Emma

    I still think Deborah Hutton is fab.

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    Elky

    Ok, enough already. Are the more judgmental posters now going to have a go at Deborah Hutton because she’s exhibiting what looks like a non- photoshopped suntan in the bikini-clad shot, thus promoting an unhealthy message about skin protection from the sun? ;-)

    Sorry to sound flippant, but I think most of us by now agree that Photoshopping exists, and it’s nigh on impossible to get rid of it in today’s commercial world. And quite a number of people don’t seem to think it’s a terrible crime, judiciously used.

    Apart from that, the discussion just sems to be going round, and round, and …

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    tastebud

    Thank you “older and wiser” for expressing my own exact thoughts below so eloqently.

    I am as vain as the next person but I’ve always felt the exterior is just a “carriage” which houses and transports the real me. Kooky I know. But truly, this was BEFORE I had the body of a woman who just 5 weeks ago had her third child and had to convince herself ;)

    And I can’t help but feel that the media so often overestimate their influence on most individuals.

    I’m not denying some impact….. but let’s take back the locus of control – don’t buy it and don’t buy INTO it. Ignore. Keep walking. Pick up a book instead, ride a bike, whatever….

    Let’s stick to what we actually CAN control; ourselves and our perception. Otherwise we’re forever destined to be suckers!

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    Mizzy

    The cynic in me thinks this “candid” bikini shot is anything but. It just feels like another way to drum up some more publicity.

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      Mia

      Mizzy, if you had any idea how distressed Deborah has been – and continues to be – about some of the appalling things that have been said about her and the way what she thought was a positive thing has blown up, you wouldn’t say that.

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        Jen

        Mia, I’m really sorry to hear that this has upset Deborah. I’ve been a fan of hers since the “this goes with that” Sussan ads she was in when I was a teenager in the 80s. Wish some people here would remember to play the point and not the person!

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        Guest

        Did she say why she wanted to pose in the nude? This is what many readers took offence from.

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        Guest

        I bet you are sorry you ever commented on the AWW cover Mia. You could have saved Deborah from all this distress.

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          Faybian

          If they hadn’t commented here, they would’ve elsewhere.

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        Mizzy

        Hi Mia, I just came home from work so I don’t know if you’ll read this late reply.

        At work today I was flicking through The Daily Telegraph (I’m not a fan, it was just there in the tea room) and on page three (not the social pages) almost the entire page was taken up by this bikini picture with its accompanying article outlining all the ‘controversy’ surrounding the cover.

        ACP owns both Women’s Weekly and the Telegraph.

        And I am a cynic.

        Edit: I do feel terrible if Deborah is feeling distressed, my heart goes out to her, I don’t mean to sound so cold in this reply.

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          Misskb

          Ah no. The Tele is owned my Murdoch and ACP is owned by Nine Entertainment / private equity. The two are unrelated.

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            Mizzy

            Oh sorry, my mistake.

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    curmudgeon

    Ok, so this is nothing new. The media always ‘lies’ to us (to put it bluntly). It constantly presents a reproduction of the truth which is doctored to service its bottom line.

    In this case, nudity and the use of Photoshop (or similar technology) have been used to create an image which is (presumably) desirable and empowered, yet (intentionally) unattainable. It makes ‘real’ women feel like shit. The logic then being that women who are unhappy with themselves will buy stuff (from the advertisers) in an attempt to ‘make them better’ (or at least make them feel better about themselves).

    Hey, that’s capitalism and obviously it’s not limited to women or this particular consumer group.

    For me, the most exasperating aspect of this issue is the media’s continued distorted representation of women in general. Is the AWW cover purporting that to be a happy and desirable 50 year old woman I have to look like an air-brushed, 30 year-old model? More importantly, is this what I have to look like to be a successful woman? As a woman, is the way I look more important than anything else I may have achieved in my life (or hope to achieve) – like having a successful career, raising a family or carrying out charity work?

    On the face of it, I don’t see the problem with using images of beautiful women in the media. In fact, I like looking at these images. Whether it is of beautiful women, beautiful men (yes please), puppy dogs, sunsets or croquembouche cakes…whatever. It is nice to look at something pretty. However, it is the context in which images of women are presented by the media (and the fact that they are almost always falsified in order to project a certain ideal) that is the problem.

    It’s a big issue (and the reason I have turned to blogs like MM to get the ‘fix’ I once obtained from women’s mags…I really can’t handle another ‘my new bikini body’ feature) and one that was touched on in another, recent MM post and is explored in the thought provoking doco Miss Representation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=161R13Senv4 (it’s worth a watch).

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    JosieY

    One of the things I love about this site is that you (collectively) are always willing to react to feedback. Thank you Mia & co.

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    JosieY

    Slightly off topic, I’m thinking of having some nude photos done for myself for my 30+1 birthday. Non photoshopped, non ‘glamour’. Anyone had any experience with these?