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WSD1 380x581 ‘What the hell did I just see?

This is an extract from Where Spirits Dwell

 

 

 

by KARINA MACHADO

‘What the hell did I just see?’

Call it a cosmic in-joke, but sometimes the otherworldly will announce itself at the very moment we’re engrossed in something entirely earthbound, like prising out the vacuum cleaner from beneath stacks of old towels and blankets in the bottom shelf of a storage cupboard. Richard Caldwell was doing just that one afternoon, on the second floor of his house in Emu Plains, west of Sydney, when he detected a shift in the space behind him. He stopped rummaging and swivelled around to gaze across the upstairs landing. What he saw has haunted him for over a decade.

Some memories blur with the passage of time, but not this one. Every year it grows sharper and glossier. Every year, he spends a little longer turning it around in his quiet moments. For this softly- spoken anaesthetist, the self-professed sceptic of his household, the puzzle is as multi-faceted as a Rubik’s Cube. Uppermost in his mind – why was he the one to see?

On a muggy January day, Michael Caldwell rings my doorbell. Over a work lunch one day, talk had turned to all matters spooky, and now the TV publicist is making good on his offer to take me for a drive to his family home, where his father, Richard, awaits with coffee and a ghost story. We head west beneath a fickle sky but rain still hasn’t fallen by the time we pull up, an hour later, outside their two-storey house. Large and commanding, with Tudor-style trimmings, the house on a park-like block opposite the Nepean River is the one I used to yearn for in my Enid Blyton-addicted girlhood. A Benji lookalike bounds over to greet us, filling out the edges of my old fantasy.

Michael’s mother, Wendy, fifty-three, meets us at the door with a burst of chatter, while his sixty-year-old father is a pensive presence in the background. In slacks and a shirt, with a pen neatly poking out of his breast pocket, he busies himself making tea and coffee, but his mind seems elsewhere, perhaps examining, for the umpteenth time, a decade-old anomaly. Michael’s sister, Lily, twenty-five, who’s recently moved back into the family home, also joins us – she wears a warm, pretty smile and a jagged brunette bob. Only the middle child, Freya, is not here today. I proffer my Lebanese pastries and we cluster in a corner of the long dining table, where scones and other morning tea treats await us.

The house is hushed. There’s a sense of expectation and deference. I’m about to find out that Richard has never revealed so much about his experience as he will today, in the serene surrounds of the home his family has lived in for twenty-seven years.

‘I was upstairs,’ he begins. ‘I was bending down, looking for something in the linen cupboard, and something made me turn around and look out onto the upstairs landing.’ He pauses and we all float forward a few millimetres. ‘I suppose she was ninety per cent visible, if you could put it that way. She wasn’t solid but there was quite a distinct image there, um, of a woman, middle-aged, probably about five foot seven, five-eight, wearing a long green velveteen skirt that went down to her feet, with a white blouse and reddy-orange hair that was about shoulder-length. She had, I suppose, an English-type complexion, a light complexion.’

As he describes the lady, methodically and succinctly, Richard is very still. I can tell by his eyes, which seem to look inward in scrutiny of the memory, that he wants to render, as faithfully as possible, the picture in his mind.

She was gazing in his direction, but her eyes did not lock on his.

‘Being the sceptic that I am, I thought, Oh, that’s nonsense, so I turned around to continue looking for whatever I was looking for. Then I thought, What the hell did I just see? and turned back around but couldn’t see her again.’

Baffled, but unafraid, Richard’s instinct was to join the dots between the lady and his elderly neighbour, Elsa, who grew up in the house and now lives next door. ‘I’ve often wondered what Elsa’s mother looked like, I’ve never raised the subject with her, but every time I’m over there I’ve looked for a photo to see if she’s got one of her mother,’ he says, chuckling. ‘I must ask her one day.’

‘My mother has always known there’s been ‘somebody’ here, hasn’t she?’ chimes in Wendy. ‘She’s very fey, as the Scottish would say, and Freya used to see a man.’

‘She used to see a lot of things and hear a lot of things,’ says Lily.

‘But she’d see this particular man. He wore a top hat, that was the main thing,’ says Wendy. ‘He had a top hat and she was frightened of him.’

It is said that haunted houses need a ‘conductor’ – a psychic/ medium who ignites paranormal activity. Talking with the Caldwells on this balmy summer’s morning, a picture started to emerge of just who this conductor might be. A couple of weeks later, I’d have my chance to ask Freya about the man in the top hat, but today, it’s her father’s flame-haired visitor who demands our attention.

We tour the house, prattling as we go. I look up at the handsome staircase and my heart smiles. Such a staircase was a non-negotiable feature of the fantasy house of my past. Perhaps, I reflect, the dwelling we dream of as children is eventually delivered to us, though we may have to wait decades – and never inhabit it outside of our imaginations.

As we all traipse upstairs, Wendy and Richard tell me about the footsteps and the opening and closing of doors that for years preceded the apparition of the velveteen lady. The phenomena ceased once she showed herself. Then talk turns to films and TV shows. ‘Did you watch Ghost last night?’ asks Richard. ‘It’s a lovely movie.’ At the upper landing, Michael, thirty, tells me how he and his sisters used to balk at the chill that hovered here, and the sense that whatever it was pursued them. ‘You’d run down with your back against the wall,’ he recalls. ‘It was terrifying.’

grave 380x569 ‘What the hell did I just see?

.

Richard pulls open the doors of the linen cupboard, in the corner of the upstairs hallway, and re-enacts his scrounging around the bottom shelf on that distant afternoon. ‘I’ve looked back and she was about here,’ he says, pointing to a spot behind him, barely ninety centimetres away. Standing where it happened, I can’t imagine this exacting man to be mistaken in what he saw, especially when he reports such intricate detail – her skirt was green velveteen, her blouse white, her hair a blazing halo.

‘I would have seen her for somewhere up to ten seconds,’ he adds. ‘It wasn’t just a flash.’

There’s more: ‘Her age was between forty and forty-five. Her expression was fairly bland. I wouldn’t have said she was forlorn or upset, or what have you. She was more pensive.’ Like you, I think, and Wendy is of the same mind. ‘I have a funny feeling that she’s to do with somebody on your side of the family,’ she tells her husband. ‘Your mother had red orangey hair …’ Richard shakes his head, declaring, ‘It wasn’t anyone from my side of the family,’ but Wendy ploughs on. ‘I can remember your mother telling me that one of your great aunts had – as they put it – horrible red hair. They were shocked, because your grandfather was a blonde and your grandmother was a brunette, to produce these two daughters with red hair.’

Yet Richard is determined to explore his theory that the woman is an antecedent of his neighbour, Elsa, whose father built the property in 1939. As we wander outside to the backyard, he decides to pop next door and invite Elsa over for tea – to lay the mystery in her lap once and for all.

When Elsa glides into the dining room, where we’ve once again gathered, I resist the urge to curtsey, because this beautiful seventy- something lady is so innately graceful. Her blonde hair is cut in a chic bob and she wears a sleeveless frock with a narrow ribbon around her wasp waist. Straight-backed and slim as a sparrow, she nibbles delicately on a pastry. When she speaks, her perfect enunciation echoes another era, a voice transported through time. But Elsa is no ice queen – friendly and approachable, she shines her bright smile, framed by peachy-pink lipstick, like a welcoming beacon. She listens, absolutely fascinated, as Richard retells his experience.

‘Somebody in your family! They had the red hair!’ she exclaims.

Richard seems slightly crestfallen. Elsa is adamant it couldn’t have been her mother, as he’d always imagined, since she didn’t have red hair. She agrees with Wendy that the stranger in the Edwardian outfit was most likely an ancestor of Richard’s. ‘It’s queer, isn’t it?’ she says, softly. ‘I wonder who she was?’

I’m curious as to whether Elsa ever experienced anything odd while she was living here … ‘No,’ she answers, looking a bit sheepish and laughing, a youthful sound like bells tinkling. Her reminiscences of growing up here, on what was then a forty-hectare orchard, with her parents and two sisters, are like the house itself, picture-book pretty. Where Michael and Lily shudder at the memory of rushing up and down the staircase with the weight of something unseen at their backs, Elsa’s memory of the stairs is lit up in pink and green, the shades of the Aurora Australis, or Southern Lights, celestial fireworks that sometimes coloured in the landing window as they climbed up to bed. ‘We had an idyllic childhood,’ she says. ‘We swam in the river, we had the tennis court, we used to go dancing, so I was very lucky.’

It’s time to start the drive back, though we’re still no closer to solving the mystery of what Richard saw on that day, indistinguishable, up until then, from so many before it. A plea from another plane marked that afternoon, snuffed out its quotidian concerns, and Richard answered it. Was her wish merely to be seen? To matter for a moment? If so, perhaps that’s why she’s never appeared again. In his calm doctor’s eyes, the remembrance of her still burns bright.

Extracted from Where Spirits Dwell by Karina Machado (Hachette Australia, $32.99)

For her next book, Karina is seeking stories about the ways we sense the presence of loved ones who’ve passed. If you’d like to share your experience, please email her at karinamachado@optusnet.com.au

Karina Machado was born in Uruguay and moved to Sydney with her family as a toddler, where she grew up hearing stories of her mother’s psychic gift.

What are your thoughts on the paranormal? Are you a sceptic? Or do you believe?

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67 Comments so far

  1. Emma

    I definitely believe in spirits, I’ve had way too many experiences with them to not! When I was about 7, I was sitting on the toilet (the most dignified place to be when you see a ghost!) and I saw a man, who at the time I thought was God (because he looked exactly like him), materialize through the curtains next to me. I distinctly saw the outline of a hand and a face before it vanished.

    I’ve never seen anything that distinct since, but ever since my grandmother passed away, I constantly see whispy white formations in the air, unexplained moving shadows and white flashes of movement through the air.

    At her funeral, we had the ‘reception’ at the actual crematorium because it was such a beautiful area with wide, sweeping hills and lakes, not at all like your typical derelict graveyard. I was sitting in between my mum and my auntie, who were both in conversations with people on either side of them. I was sitting, not speaking to anyone when I heard a very distinct, clear whisper of my name. I looked around, thinking that someone was talking to me but no one was. My sister noticed me looking around in confusion and she asked me what was wrong. To this day, I am positive it was my Grandma reassuring me she was still here, even if I can no longer see her.

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  2. elli

    I’m pro-science, and staunchly agnostic (if that’s not too much of an oxymoron) re religion, but I believe in ghosts and other paranormal stuff. Just because we can’t prove they’re real doesn’t mean they can’t be.

    I’ve had a few experiences but, unlike others, it’s me that’s been haunted rather than the house. My then-partner and I bought a unit off-the-plan a couple of years after my Dad died and lived in it straight away, so noone was haunting the building.

    One evening I was quietly knitting and, out of the corner of my eye, I saw a man-shaped hole in the air. (Like the way you can seeing through frameless glasses and still see where the edges are.) I then saw myself cross the room, put my arms around his neck and kiss him. The feeling I had was so warm and loving and protected. I didn’t recognise him, but one psychic I’ve seen suggested he was a past-life husband.

    Twice I’ve felt my Dad’s presence. Once was just a sense of his big, happy, boisterous presence which hung around for a few minutes then left. The second time was while I was watching a Getaway show about the HMS Victory in England. (Dad loved sailing and was building a model of the Victory when he died.) I again had a sense of his personality in the room. When the show was over I stepped onto the balcony and looked at the stars. I said something aloud, partly to myself and partly to him if he was still there. I then touched my upper arms and imagined myself hugging him, and suddenly it was just like I was really hugging him. I could even feel the contours of his chest and belly against me. I don’t normally have a vivid imagination and have never been able to replicate the experience. (I saw the same program on repeat a while later and felt nothing more than sentimental.) I haven’t felt him since, so maybe he was saying goodbye.

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    • The Wounded Bull

      What a lovely post. Just one thing, you state up front that you are ‘pro-science, and staunchly agnostic’, yet you go to phychics? That seems a bit contradictory to me.

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      • elli

        I’m agnostic, not atheist. Deities may or may not exist, but I don’t have any solid proof either way so I’m open to being convinced about either possibility (although neither has so far). I have some personal experience in favour of the paranormal, which is more than I have for religion. As for science, it does a wonderful job at what it knows so far, but sometimes it forgets that it doesn’t yet know everything about everything.

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  3. Lisa @ Blithe Moments

    My grandfather turns up occasionally to family events. My aunt has seen him and he has made his presence known in various ways that were otherwise unexplainable. I love it, really feels like he is keeping an eye on the family. As a small child I had many of his mannerisms and he died the year before I was born. I often wonder if he is my guardian.

    My other grandfather hung around till my grandmother died. He got quite irritating, would drive my Mum nuts so she used to have to tell him off.

    There are plenty more “ghost” stories in our family. I don’t know if we are sensitive or just open to the possibility, but I can tell you my boarding school was definitely haunted and not in a nice way, and that our cats spirits hung around for ages.

    I hate the idea that if you believe in science you can’t believe there are unexplained things. Pretty much all of current science was unexplained at some point in time, who is to say if we are going to find a way to discover the existence of spirits etc. Believing that my grandfather hangs around is entirely different from visiting a witch doctor, planning my day based on my astrology or making a decision based on a psychic. If you think that makes me silly, then think so. I think it makes me lucky.

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  4. Catherine

    Ghosts never seem to appear going to the toilet or picking their nose.

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    • Lisa @ Blithe Moments

      My grandfather appeared to my aunt while she was on the toilet. He promptly disappeared and turned up 5 minutes later behind her in the mirror. Maybe they usually have a better sense of timing.

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    • elli

      They don’t have bodies, so don’t have any need to do either.

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  5. Lisa Jensen

    “At the upper landing, Michael, thirty, tells me how he and his sisters used to balk at the chill that hovered here, and the sense that whatever it was pursued them” – we had EXACTLY the same thing in our old house – it was this one spot between the bathroom and the laundry, and every time I went past it I would bolt down the hall exactly the same way as Michael and sisters did, terrified with my back against the wall, and not feel safe until I’d gotten through the door to the lounge and closed it!! I never really investigated it much, but it used to scare the bejesus out of me – and definitely didn’t feel friendly!

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    • Lisa @ Blithe Moments

      Yup, we had that feeling in one of the staircases in our boarding school. I reckon about a quarter of the students could feel it. Many I’ve spoken to had no idea, but I tell you what I would happily go the very long way around to avoid being in that staircase alone.

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  6. Karina

    Thanks for the comments on my story. I appreciate all the viewpoints, but just wanted to point out that my interest in the paranormal has never been about trying to convince anyone to “believe” or to purport in any way that I have the answer to what’s at the heart of these experiences. On the contrary, it’s as simple as this: I love a good story. I’m drawn to the mystery that these experiences encompass, especially in a story like the one above, where the protagonist is a man of science who remains utterly baffled by a decade-old event. Much like the good doctor I interviewed, I don’t know if his experience, and so many others like his, indicates the possibility of life after death, or if the answer lies in neuroscience, quantum physics or something else entirely—I’m more interested in how these experiences affect my interviewees. I’m honoured to be entrusted with their stories, told from the heart, and my only aim is to render them faithfully.

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  7. Anon

    When I was in Scotland and walking around Edinburgh Castle I suddenly ‘felt’ that something was wrong. And the feeling got stronger and stronger. I started thinking my brother had died and I remember being in the gift shop of Edinburgh Castle looking at gifts for my family thinking “but if my brother is dead then there’s no point buying him a gift”. I felt sick and so cold. A friend I was travelling with asked me what was wrong and I told her “I know it’s crazy but I just feel like something is really wrong, but I don’t know what!”

    We went into a pub to get some lunch and I was shivering and then I swear I felt a ‘presence’ and I had a feeling of being loved and a feeling of goodbye. So I said (in my head) “Goodbye, I love you.” It passed and I shook it all off and told myself I was CRAZY! I don’t believe in any of that stuff and thought I must be getting sick!

    A few hours later I received a call to tell me my father had died – around the time I started feeling like something was wrong. He hadn’t been sick at all. I had no way of knowing he would die while I was away.

    I still have doubts about what I felt that day and wonder if it’s all just coincidence as I really don’t believe. But at the same time I feel comforted by the fact that my father might have travelled around the globe to say goodbye to me before he left our world as we know it.

    If anyone told me this story I wouldn’t believe it. Yet it happened to me. What’s the most simple explanation? I don’t know.

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  8. Anonymous

    The closest I’ve come to anything spooky is 2 episodes of sleep paralysis. The first time it happened I was a teenager and I woke up from being asleep and could hear someone moving things around in the room behind me but I couldn’t move. The second time was a couple of years ago (I’m in my 30′s now). It was during the night, I woke up and couldn’t move and saw something small and white pass me, I thought it was my toddler daughter but found her in the morning still in her cot. I lay there for a while completely unable to move. Both times I concentrated hard on trying to move and both times I came back with a big jolt. The second time scared me so much I was frightened of going to sleep for weeks afterwards. I hope it never happens to me again, it’s an awful feeling not being able to move.

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    • KatK

      I have experienced sleep paralysis often. It is so awful! I always have a panic attack during it. But I’ve learnt to stop fighting it and try and relax and go back to sleep again. Still freaks me out though every time! Not being able to move, but hearing and feeling other things happening in the room!

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      • Rick Morton

        I’ve had it so often I’ve been able to turn it into the beginning of a lucid dream. Now I love it! Sometimes I reckon I have more fun while I’m sleeping!

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        • KatK

          I hope one day I can turn it into a lucid dream. To me it’s awful and I feel stuck and want to wake up! Though the other night I felt like I was floating around and was trying to wake up from it, which didn’t work, so I gave up and went with the flow. :)

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    • shanny

      is that what you call it!? i used to have it as a child and teenager, it’s terrifying!

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  9. Sara

    When I was 11 I woke up one night and an old man was standing at the end of my bed. Similarly to the story above, we didn’t make eye contact and he was there for about 10 seconds or so. I became afraid and it was the moment I tried to scream, but couldn’t that he vanished. I have read about sleep paralysis and wonder if that’s what I experienced. Slightly off topic, but in my early twenties I woke up on two separate occasions where I was floating above my sleeping body (in the same position). I would have floated for about 10 seconds or so each time and when I moved, it was like *snap* I was back in my body. Strange but true.

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    • Sienna

      Astral travelling! Wish I could do it!

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  10. Susan As Well

    Spooky and eerie story for a rainy afternoon!
    I don’t think the paranormal debunks science or science disproves the paranormal. One day, we may even find that each proves something about the other. Interesting story to read though.

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  11. Anonymous

    I LIKE reading ghost stories AND my kids are fully vaccinated! This whole argument that we must censor anything that isn’t ‘scientific’ is starting to give me the shits. It’s very arrogant to assume that people need to be protected from anything that can’t be / hasn’t yet been explained by science.

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    • Jules

      Totally agree. I really enjoyed this post despite being a believer in ‘science’ and not much else.

      I guess we must have… I dunno….. brains?… independent thought?… common sense?…. to not have run straight out to a medium with our life savings after reading this dangerous propoganda!

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  12. Mel

    I’m not sure what happens after we pass but who am I to say whether ghosts are real or not? Saying you know for sure they don’t exist is kinda arrogant. You don’t. So just let people who want to hear about this kind of stuff be!
    Haters gonna hate.

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  13. Ang

    Oh please, I think ‘spirits’ are as real as God. When someone can show me some indesputable scietntfic evidence of either then consider me converted! At least it’s not another parenting article though…

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    • get over it

      Ha so typically human aren’t you? What you can’t see/touch/prove you don’t believe…when will humans get over themselves to understand that we don’t know everything there is to know in the universe. We are so damn arrogant as a species.

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      • clarinette

        Are you an alien or something ? Or do animals believe in god? I’m pretty sure humans are the only animals who have a touch of schizophrenia .

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    • Jimmy's Girl

      Consider that the tiniest lizard in your garden lives its entire life without knowing there is (for example) an ocean a few miles away, distant bushfires burning, and planets circling around the sun. Let alone every human invention, city, idea or concept. It doesn’t mean these things don’t exist, just that the tiny lizard lives its life in blissful ignorance. Maybe, for all humanity’s achievements, we are doing the same thing right now…..

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  14. Ghostbuster

    My youngst daughter (now 5.5) has been seeing things ever since she was tiny. When she was a baby, she would be squealing in fits of laughter in the middle of the night (with no toys in her cot to make her laugh). It progressed to talking with the spirits – full conversations – I’d hide behind the door and watch her looking up to the ceiling and laughing with someone. We have had the house cleared many times and it would always settle down afterwards, but my daughter seems to love having them there and in her words says now “I call them with my mind”!!! It’s been a problem only because it disturbs her sleep so much and she’s often tired in the day as a result of her noctural activities. I’ve seen things briefly myself in the house and have learned to clear, but they always seem to be around. Once you’ve seen one, it’s hard to say you don’t believe!

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    • The Wounded Bull

      um, where did my comment go? What was offensive in it?? For all those wondering, all I said was that the most likely explanation was usually the correct one, and that the most likely explanation of a child laughing in the night was not a ghost. What on earth is wrong with that MM? You guys are unbelievable in how you edit (aka delete stuff you disagree with even if it is not offensive) on here.

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      • Deena

        YES. I got deleted too. way to cultivate your community mm.

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      • Sienna

        What would be the most likely explanation then?

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        • The Wounded Bull

          my original comment went on to say that I have a daughter that sleep talks and sleep walks all over the place. Go figure, MM found that some how offensive.

          MM care to comment, I am getting jack of being deleted for nothing. There was absolutely NOTHING in what I said that anyone could have taken as offensive. Please explain, as you are doing it to me all the time. Is this the way you get rid of those you feel dont tow the MM line on certain issues????

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          • Delly

            I read your comment earlier and saw nothing offensive, Wounded Bull. Am puzzled too.

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          • MK

            I have had the same experience with posts being deleted in the past. Wasn’t even offensive. What is going on MM?

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            • The Wounded Bull

              Well, no comment from the powers that be at MM I note, despite me asking for an explanation. Maybe this post should be called ‘where the hell did my comment just go?’

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      • Spooooky

        Maybe something ‘out there’ is stealing your comments. Spooooky….

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        • The Wounded Bull

          lol, indeed.

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          • Jules

            I had a comment deleted recently and when I queried it they said it was by mistake and reinstated it. A handful of my other (IMO, perfectly innocuous) comments have been deleted in the past as well.

            The most logical explanation to me seems that it’s just a technical issue or it’s easy to accidentally delete comments or something. I get the impression that MM generally encourage (polite, civilised) debate, I doubt it’s some MM-wide plot to silence dissent.

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  15. anon

    We live in a 112 year old house. The first night we were here, both bedside lamps flickered on and off repeatedly, as did the ceiling light fixture in the same room. A welcome maybe? All the electrics had been checked and were fine.

    The house has certain places that are very cold. And you just feel weird, like if you turned around right then you would see something? The kitchen is modern and renovated but I don’t like to be in there alone. Can’t explain it!

    One thing. My teenage sister came to visit and slept in my daughters bedroom. She told me the next morning she had thought she saw a man in the doorway of the bedroom looking at her. Strangely enough, a speeding out of control car crashed into the house years ago and came to rest in that bedroom. A young male passenger was killed..

    We didn’t find out about the crash until well after we moved in, and the neighbours told us.

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  16. Guest

    I really enjoyed this story. As a child I saw a woman in my room which could not be explained. This remains my most vivid memory and often think about it. I confess to still being a little afraid of the dark! I am someone who tends to be cynical about most things and always favour scientific explanation. Science however can’t disprove the existence of spirits (I realise it also can’t prove it either). I do believe had I not had this experience that I would probably be very skeptical but it is hard to ignore what you have seen with your own eyes. I think it is really interesting that so many people have had such experiences that they can’t explain. Thanks for the great read.

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    • My feeling, from the scientific perspective, is not so much about the validity of whether people actually see ghosts or not, but more to do with “why”.

      I think people really see these things, but what they see isn’t supernatural, or a spirit, or a sign of “the afterlife” – I think it is more likely that there is some neurological aspect to ghostly visitations that we are only beginning to understand. What we see in our minds isn’t really there…it’s just a construct – I think sometimes the brain develops a glitch and “hey presto” we see a ghost…

      There are already some scientific studies into these phenomena that are beginning to suggest that this is in fact the case…early days of course…

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  17. Guest

    one of my daughters saw a man in her bedroom when she was a toddler. She kept repeating the story and wasn’t scared as such but was a little annoyed at the man for being in her room. My husband and I asked around and found two women who could come to the house to “cleanse” it for us for free. We didn’t tell our daughter any of this and after the women had been she never mentioned the man again.

    When my brother passed away in a car accident over 20 years ago I didn’t sense anything. I occasionally “feel” like he is in the car with me though and he prods me in the back when I am not paying enough attention to the road or am distracted by the kids or something and this “feeling” has saved me a few times.

    When my grandmother passed away last year I went to her funeral which was away from home. I was staying in a motel with my daughters and the night before the funeral I was drifting off to sleep when I felt a hand on the back of my leg. I rolled over to see which of my girls wanted me and they were both sound asleep. I wondered then if that was my Nana’s way of saying goodbye? Who knows, but it was comforting for me.

    I am a sceptic but when you experience the unexplained personally it is hard to say that it is all in your mind.

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  18. Cath

    I don’t like seeing stories about ghosts, mainly because I think there is a lot of potential for manipulating grieving people, who are vulnerable and would do almost anything for another glimpse or message from their loved ones.

    Promoting ghost stories just encourages an industry that takes advantage of this vulnerability and makes money out of it. Surely, for every one person who might be incredibly perceptive, and help someone with closure, there are several who just want to make money and see a good opportunity to get it.

    I admit that I am a cynic and I don’t believe in ghosts. Some people just want to believe, and that is ok, but I don’t believe the industry is ‘harmless’. I think there is great potential to do harm.

    Please don’t shoot me down, I just wanted to give my perspective on the article. This story is ok and I understand that people will always talk about supernatural things and superstitions, and there is a lot of people who want to talk about their experiences.

    I just worry about encouraging people to believe in this sort of thing, when perhaps it is just a bit more healthy to accept the fact that when a person dies, they are gone and they aren’t going to come back.

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    • bushpiglet

      Thats your perspective and I respect that. I agree that there is great potential for frauds and shysters to cause harm. But I know for myself that it gives me great comfort to know that my loved ones go on after death. I’ve seen them and I’ve spoken with them and I dont need to prove it to any one else for it to be true to me. I’m very grateful for it.

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  19. kateo

    I always find these stories terrifyingly fascinating. I hate horror films and rarely watch a thriller but theres something about Ghost stories and lure me in, I think it’s something about having loved ones pass and wanting some kind of connection with them to know their soul is resting- and to ease some hearache on the bereaveds’ part. I have heard somany terrifying stories of encounters with demonic looking maids and a little girl who would sit on the end of my friends bed and my grandmother who remembers the footsteps up the hallway at their old house in England. I have very vivid dreams and I think I have been visited through them, or maybe I’ve just seen what I needed to see, I will always remember my mother saying “it might be nice to let the good things in; family and friends, but you have no control or understanding of the spirit world, it’s not something to mess with!”

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  20. Drew

    Right, mamamia. Those anti-vaxers are all kooks, but people who see dead people…

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    • Rick Morton

      Aren’t hurting anybody. What’s the harm in sharing stories? I don’t personally believe in ghosts but who cares if people want to talk about it?

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      • I understand the MM editorial perspective of publishing different people’s views (and this isn’t directed at you personally Rick…just replying to your comment) but I also worry that publishing articles like this that ask people to ignore science over faith (be it ghosts or gods or whatever) in some way undermines the great work this site has done in the past when focussing on science over nonsense with MM’s stance on anti-vaxxers and climate-change deniers…

        …but…that’s the nature of MM…

        …anyway, you all know my view about stuff like this…I won’t bore everyone again…if you’re interested, go here: http://kikiandtea.com/2012/05/the-impossible-debate-science-vs-faith/

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        • Rick Morton

          I think people are smart enough to make their own judgments between harmless stories and harmful anti-science. You know our position.

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          • Yep – like I said, I totally understand the MM position…

            I also understand that other people consider anything that undermines science to be harmful…

            I’m probably more the latter than the former ;)

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            • bushpiglet

              Its not undermining science though. Its undermining your belief that nothing exists after death and you find an alternative belief confronting so you hide behind a scientific viewpoint. The fact is that many people find an afterlife comforting and it does give them hope. Just because you dont believe it doesnt make it so. The jurys out and the scientific evidence isnt as conclusive as you’d like to think. Not all scientists are atheists and not all people who believe in an afterlife are mindless simpletons who are going to be conned by the latest mantra chanting,chrystal waving new ager.People will make decisions based on their own life experiences,many many sceptics will have experiences that cant be explained by the rather sketchy science that is out there. I’m not sure why so many scientists find people of faith so confronting.

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            • I don’t think scientists find people of faith confronting in the least…

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            • clarinette

              Haha “confronting ” :D

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          • Loop

            Sorry Rick, I love you to death but have to agree with the other commenters here. Many damaging and dangerous non-scientific crusades begin with people saying ‘What’s the harm?’.

            ‘What’s the harm in me not vaccinating my kids, when there are no almost zero cases of the diseases and even if MY kid catches the disease they probably won’t die?”, for example.

            There are objective facts that can be determined in cases of ‘paranormal experiences’ just as there are objective facts in the case for vaccination, and there is also emotional and financial harm that can be done when people believe against reason and evidence.

            I really like that Mamamia is (usually) dedicated to the scientific perspective and it’s one of the things that keeps me coming back! I have no expectations with regard to this story but wanted to let you know that this part of your readership is with others in this comment thread.

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          • The Wounded Bull

            lol, you and your ‘harmful anti science’ Rick, like science is almost every in total agreement on things being studied in the moment.

            That is why debate happens Rick, and the end result is a truer undersanding than that which would have occured were people to just settle on the first populist idea scientists believed was correct (without re examing or questioning ideas ever again).

            This is the very lifeblood of science dear boy.

            Now if you will excuse me, I need to put another jumper on, this global warming caper doesnt seem to be occuring in Melbourne this year, much to Tim Flannery’s annoyance I assume.

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            • Mabol

              Yes it is a bit chilly in Melbourne right now isn’t it! Funny that – being winter…(and not cold enough to snow like it did in the eighties…) Statistical aberrations are completely expected within a trend towards a warmer climate. Of course the current epistemology of science is based on attempts to continue to refute even well established theories. I agree with your general point. However when you attempt to refute please do this within a legitimate context of what the problem requires (in this case a trend of several years).

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            • The Wounded Bull

              Mabol, you are arguing with a mathematician / statistician, but thanks for the heads up It was a cheeky piss take, the last line.

              I note that Flannery again is sprouting about the deaths that will come with warming, yet fails to acknowledge the very real statistic that many many many more people die of cold in the world than heat. He really is not a pimple of the bum of a scientist that guy.

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            • Rick Morton

              Umm that’s the point of science. Anti science means anti the scientific method. Science grows and evolves *because* of testing hypotheses and differing views which are then tested against the evidence. Anti science is *very* different to anti disagreement ;)

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        • MJ

          I personally think anyone with common sense can clearly tell the difference between the importance of following the objective scientific evidence behind issues like climate change & vaccination, and discussing ghost stories.
          If somebody suddenly changes their mind about vaccination because they read an article about ghosts then they’re obviously not someone who approaches life with common sense or logic anyway, mama mia can’t be responsible for people who can’t think for themselves to that degree.

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        • Mabol

          It is interesting John James that many physicists and philosophers argue that the ontological emergence of non-epiphenomenal properties (such as consciousness) from complex systems is logically impossible. Many reputable thinkers believe that this necessitates that consciousness itself is in some way a fundamental property of the universe. I am as sure as few things as that consciousness is not an epi-phenomenal property of the mind. The qualitative experience of consciousness is actively selected for within evolution – and is important in subconscious decision making.

          I do not believe that life either is an accident – all the organic precursers are routinely generated under common conditions by the thermodynamic laws of the universe. And given enough time and the right conditions probably form life.

          Life and consciousness may be built in to the structure of the universe. This opens up some very interesting philosophical cans of worms.

          Minds are not computers – and this is why they are able to deal with paradox and contradictions in a way that computers are not – and is perhaps how we can avoid the sticky implications of the incompleteness theorem and the impossibility of a completely logically consistent system. There is nothing within evolutionary biology that selects for being able to disseminate some form of objective truth of the universe. Our perceptive and cognitive functions are directed towards survival not truth.

          Science is also an anthropological ‘construct’. And one that has undergone many radical revisions and it is still extremely problematic to qualify exactly what it is. There are many theories of how it ties in rationalist and empiricist positions Previous constructs that were considered irrefutable and objective such as the still recent logical positivist viewpoint have been wholly debunked.

          The increasingly dogmatic perception of science is also causing a great deal of harm. Too many people accept anything labeled with the ‘authority’ of science (as supposed to actual critical science) as being an objective truth and worship it as a truth as vigorously and dogmatically as people with faith. This allows science to be routinely sabotaged by those whose agenda is far from any interest in its veracity.

          I am highly skeptical of ghosts – I have a rudimentary understanding that consciousness supervenes on the physical. However I have a strong suspicion that this universe is subjectivist at its core and its nature is far stranger that any fiction.

          In the meantime I think it is a good idea to respect everyone’s beliefs and engage all people into robust discussion that values their input. Most people are reasonable when they are treated with respect and presented with enough strong evidence. For those instances where clear harm is almost certain – it is for society together with legal and political institutions to decide what is an appropriate intervention.

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          • Diana The Huntress

            Yes, this. A thousand time this. There is such a massive difference between “I don’t believe in that, myself” and “there is nothing beyond what we can see and anyone who thinks there is is a naive, brainwashed halfwit.”

            I did science at uni, completely understand the theories, can work within the scientific context, am well-versed in the scientific method and would describe myself, in general, as a skeptic. But I don’t know everything that’s going on, I am not 100% sure there’s no life after death (news flash- none of us know what happens. We haven’t experienced it) and I don’t assume that people who don’t buy wholeheartedly into scientific dogma are idiots (like it or not, science is a belief system. One that is more evidence based, but a belief system just the same).

            It is amazing to me how zealous and evangelical some scientists/atheists can be. Religious people don’t have the monopoly on shrill self-righteousness, you know.

            And what’s to say this stuff is supernatural? It could be perfectly natural and we’re just not at an evolutionary point where we can make sense of it. Do you really, honestly believe human evolution and cognition has reached its peak?

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      • backagain

        Please don’t stop publishing ghost stories and supernatural tales…the one’s that have been on mamamia have actually been really moving and I’ve enjoyed sharing my own glimpses of things and reading the comments. I don’t think it’s hurting anyone.

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    • timelady

      Don’t like it, don’t read it, don’t comment?

      I really do wonder about people nowadays. Valid criticism is one thing, but we get so many people carping on about things simply because they are uninterested.

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      • Loop

        I would call that valid criticism, timelady!

        The article promotes a non-scientific point of view which has potential to emotionally and financially harm some people.

        It’s not just people saying they aren’t interested at all.

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    • Mary Christmas

      I would hazard a guess that there are more people out there who believe in ghosts than don’t believe in vaccination.

      Sorry, awkward-late-night-Sunday-morning-sentence.

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    • Mia

      That’s a fairly long bow to draw….

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